TARJA TURUNEN emphasizes feeling and beauty in music

10.09.2009

Marja Jähi-Salo from Amusa.fi did a short interview with Tarja Turunen after her show in Mäntyharju, Finland on August 30, 2009. The interview follows below.

Tarja Turunen emphasizes feeling and beauty in music

- I hope I never see the day, that I can't feel my music, that I was a "dead" singer.

- Independent and stubborn, Tarja Turunen answers the question how is it to do your own artistic work. It's great to plan your own life and repertoire, she says happily. The tensions aren't there anymore and you can do your own work with your group. She says that she's also thankful for being healthy.

Tarja Turunen's life is filled with work, the future 20 concert tour starting from Holland soon is a sign of this. For a month she'll tour many European countries. In Finland she performed August 30th at Mäntyharju's church. The next time you can see her in Finland at a Halloween concert at Tampere and a few months later a Christmas tour lies ahead. Turunen has an international group of musicians, a rock band, that has two players for one instrument. The musicians are American, Finnish and also one from Germany. Styles vary from metal, rock and funk to classic. The technical staff if mostly Finnish.

Melting different styled together while composing

A new album is under way which is especially exiting for Turunen. For the first time she has composed new material herself and mentiones she's nervous. It has given a good feeling and demanded being in silence. She has wanted to test her own limits and applied her own area, crossover-thinking. The album comes out next year.

Turunen tells different music styles melt together with her in a way. The result is heavy and film music for example. She emphasizes beauty in music, which she likes and wants to produce. With the previous album she was involved with composing and writing lyrics. Then the album had one of her own song, a slow ballad. She likes composing beautiful film music and is doing the score for a Polish film. At the moment the production has been delayed because of the financial situation so the end result can't yet be heard or seen.

Intrest to Finland - flags swing

Tarja Turunen has been the ambassador of Finnish music for years and that's also how she sees herself. According to her there's a lot of intrest to Finland. She says she sees Finnish flags in her concerts, eventhough there aren't any Finns present. They are seen more as a symbol of the music, heavy. Suprisingly there's intrest to learn the Finnish language. For example the Argentinean embassy can't find enough teachers for Finnish lessons. The will to learn has also been seen in other countries. Besides the music Finland is known for Santa Claus, motosport drivers, Nokia and Tarja Halonen.

Finland and Argentina are different homelands

Certain norms apply on all fields of art according to Turunen. Many go where the fence is the lowest. You have to be humble and believe in your own art, do it well and with emotion so that the message gets across to the listener as well. Turunen emphasizes the importance of emotion in an artists profession and making music.
- I hope I never see the day, that I can't feel my music, that I was a "dead" singer. Immediacy and humility come across to the listener, she says.

The journey from Kitee to the world sounds like a long one. The burning to get away was however severe already at the age of 15. The art high school in Savonlinna was the first step. Tarja Turunen tells she was the only girl in her family and had to manage with her brothers so going out in the world didn't seem that scary. Sibelius Academy followed after Savonlinna. The town of Puhos in Kitee with 500 inhabitants was a safe environment to grow. Going to Kitee is always a special and sensitive place for her. There are relatives and deceaseds, who she remembers always when going to the graves. Most of the year is spent somewhere else than Finland to the possibility to go back to old home comes seldom.

Argentina has been a home for over ten years. The lifestyle has opened more after learning the language. The vividness of life grabbed her along and the unpredictability charms. You never know how the day will end.
- You don't plan a day the same you would in Finland, where things are done according to plan which makes the day predictable. It of course gives assurity, which I have also learned to appreciate.

Credit for English translation goes to Anne

Source: Amusa.fi

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Comments

"For example the Argentinean embassy can't find enough teachers for Finnish lessons."

Why should Argentinean embassy organize Finnish lessons!? Doesn't make any sense to me.

TheSeer wrote on 10.09.2009 at 20:39
I´m pretty sure that she ment that the Finnish Embassy placed in Argentina can´t find enough Finnish teachers.

Demen wrote on 10.09.2009 at 20:55
I believe that what it said was that the Finnish embassy in Argentina can't find enough teachers for Finnish lessons...it's probably a mistake in the translation. It means that in Argentina there's a lot of people interested in learning the Finnish language.

Manxita wrote on 10.09.2009 at 21:00
if there is a request for Finnish lessons from lots of people,then it's normal i guess... :)

Bassie wrote on 10.09.2009 at 22:26
@ The Seer

Perhaps she means the Argentinian embassy in Helsinki...the staff there might want to learn Finnish. That's my theory, anyway.

CanuckFan wrote on 10.09.2009 at 23:11
Indeed... i think their are much more important languages than finnisch

Zyan wrote on 11.09.2009 at 00:11
I think she meant the finnish embassy in Argentina.

Mwaha wrote on 11.09.2009 at 01:19
"finnish lessons". What she needs to talk about is english lessons, and find a class soon! Dark cheese of wonders,,,,Eaver dream of me,,,,,Wishmasture. The list goes on. Tuomas puts his heart and soul into his lyrics and tarja sings about black cheese. Advice for tarja. Sing in finnish or don´t sing at all.Take it.

Wrathchild wrote on 11.09.2009 at 06:38
@ Wrathchild

Wow, do you really feel better insulting Tarja and praising Anette on every Tarja article? XD

James wrote on 11.09.2009 at 08:08
James. I don´t think I praised Anette on this one now did I?

Wrathchild wrote on 11.09.2009 at 09:44
Wrathchild wrote us:

"Tuomas puts his heart and soul into his lyrics "
_______________________________
and reminded us that Maestro does not have any heart and soul left.

What we knew already.

But - on the other hand - it is a good thing to know where did you put your staff, is not it?

mermaid wrote on 11.09.2009 at 10:07
For those of you who do not know -

requests for teachers from abroad are passed to embassy of a country in question.

But embassy just provides contacts - they are not GOING AND HIRING them.

When we needed english language teachers - we contacted embassies of UK and USA first
and they gave us contacts (universities, etc)

Then it was up to us to find some peole and make a deal with them (salary, accomodatin, etc)

mermaid wrote on 11.09.2009 at 10:11
Wrathchild said: "What she needs to talk about is english lessons, and find a class soon! Dark cheese of wonders,,,,Eaver dream of me,,,,,Wishmasture."

Everything you listed happened before the year 2005. And now it's the year 2009. Have you been in 5 years long hibernation Wrathchild?

"The list goes on."

Does it reach the year 2009?

Btw, you forgot some timeless classics of old non-diva Tarja:

-Ruled by magic and mighty SWERDS
- This is Elvenbath! (from FWTE DVD)
-Nemo my name FORIVER more...
-BOSOM for a teary cheek...

Well I guess elves have to bathe sometimes too. :-p

TheSeer wrote on 11.09.2009 at 12:28
Seer said:

"Well I guess elves have to bathe sometimes too. :-p"
_________________________
Yes, we should and we love to..

What is the problem about ElvenBATH?
Maestro wrote immortal lyrics as follows:

"I will keep my sauna warm for him.."

Why you do not allow us to have a simple bath, while Maestro could have all sauna warmed up for him???

mermaid wrote on 11.09.2009 at 13:41
mermaid said: "Why you do not allow us to have a simple bath"

Since when mermaids are elves? :-p

TheSeer wrote on 11.09.2009 at 14:02
The seer. No,it´s on the End of of an era dvd (2005) I believed all women where better than men doing two things simultaneously but I guess I was wrong. tarja can´t sing and pronounce english words correctly at the same time.

Wrathchild wrote on 11.09.2009 at 14:38
Seer,

I revealed already that my nationality is Elvish...

Who said that mermaids should be human?

mermaid wrote on 11.09.2009 at 16:11
I've never seen Tuomas complaining about her accent. I think he knows better than anyone else how his songs and lyrics should be sang.

Mwaha wrote on 11.09.2009 at 16:14
@wrathchild

"Tuomas puts his heart and soul into his lyrics and tarja sings about black cheese"

And Tuomas put his heart and soul into his music and Anette sings and dances like she's on a freaking disco dancefloor.

btw,there are actually no singers whom native language isn't English that pronounce everything perfect.
Tonny from Sonata Arctica,Floor,mats Leven....
For God's sake,even Bruce Dickinson is sometimes hard to understand.

Legeon wrote on 11.09.2009 at 16:30
@wrathchild

"I believed all women where better than men doing two things simultaneously but I guess I was wrong"

You were wrong,since Anette is the proof that some women can't do not even one thing.
She can't sing WHILE she can't dance,or show any emotion.
or she can't sing while she can't hold the mic with her hands.

Legeon wrote on 11.09.2009 at 16:32
Wrathchild or I better call you by your real name Cyrille, right? I think it was in your profile that you listed band Evanescence among you fav. bands and you called it "metal music" LOL

"Tuomas puts his heart and soul into his lyrics"

Some of his lyrics are so whinny and cheesy that there is no heart or soul, LOL

"tarja can´t sing and pronounce english words correctly at the same time. "

Yes, she can. Although she does mistakes.

Roy wrote on 11.09.2009 at 16:52
Legeon,

you have proven yourself wrong:

Anette is not dancing properly while she is not singing properly

and she can manage to do both things PROPERLY.

In properly unproperly way..

mermaid wrote on 11.09.2009 at 16:53
You have got me people... I did not know untill now that the thing Princess is doing

is meant to be a SINGING!!

I always thought she is reciting...

mermaid wrote on 11.09.2009 at 16:58
Lols at Wrathchild, I men seriously if you ask me the new Nightwish is suffering from Creative Burnout, you can see that Maestro isn't that a hungry musician like the old days and he's been complacent alright.

Ravisk wrote on 11.09.2009 at 16:59
People, why do you mind Wrathchild at all? He is Anette's fan, it already tells you all about his intellect or taste in music. They are both on zero level. Another mainstream pop lover who likes old women singing like cartoon anime characters and thinking it is rock or metal.

SnowWhiteSorrow wrote on 11.09.2009 at 17:02
Roy said:

"Some of his lyrics are so whinny and cheesy that there is no heart or soul, LOL "
_______________________________
Roy,
what if both his heart and his soul are whinny and cheesy?

Maestro is after all, still a human - why do you suspect to be non whinny and non cheessy?

mermaid wrote on 11.09.2009 at 17:23
Mwaha. One of the criterions for the new singer was she has to have a good english accent. Now, why´s that? Did they have any bad experience?

Wratchild wrote on 11.09.2009 at 17:28
mermaid said: "You have got me people... I did not know untill now that the thing Princess is doing is meant to be a SINGING!! I always thought she is reciting..."

You should have known, you posted this link if I'm not wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gr-u7pIdyc

:-D

TheSeer wrote on 11.09.2009 at 17:55
@ Ravisk

You're right. It's not just Anette that's causing NW's inability to create the music they once did 10 years ago... but Anette isn't helping matters either.

James wrote on 11.09.2009 at 18:12
I'm a linguist and I say: concerning the accents, there's no "level zero" and that stupid discussion tarja vs anette (episode 6986725) could exist for James Labrie and russel allen or floor jansen and simone simons or...

I'm sad for NW and Tarja 'cause the only interset people have for them is the belly, the clothes, the dance...

hi wrote on 11.09.2009 at 18:54
@wrathchild

"One of the criterions for the new singer was she has to have a good english accent. Now, why´s that? Did they have any bad experience?"

They also asked for adults.Did they have any bad experience?

LOL,this argument about criterias is the most ridiculous i've ever heard...
They also asked for someone with "charisma",and Tuomas has said numerous times that Tarja HAD that charisma.
So your point is void.

Legeon wrote on 11.09.2009 at 20:24
I never really minded a few mispronunciations on Tarja's part. Marco is guilty too, he sang a song for Elias Viljanen this year and pronounced breath as breathe (with a soft 'th') in the chorus, which sort of hampered my enjoyment of the song. But these guys' English is still a whole fucking lot better than my Finnish, so considering they are singing in their second language with only a few clangers we can cut them some slack.

As an aside, and at the risk of opening a can of worms of epic proportions, what is with the nickname 'Maestro' for Tuomas? Is this what he calls himself now, like P. Diddy becoming Puff Daddy (or vice versa, I forget)? Or has it been cooked up by his detractors? It is a little irritating either way.

Jon wrote on 11.09.2009 at 20:59
Wrathchild said: "Mwaha. One of the criterions for the new singer was she has to have a good english accent. Now, why´s that? Did they have any bad experience?"

You're making things up. The one and only criterion for the new singer was that she had to be down-to-earth. NW die-hard talibans invented that story about English accent.

Jon said: "what is with the nickname 'Maestro' for Tuomas? Is this what he calls himself now"

Well he said in his lyrics into which, according to Wrathchild, he puts his heart and soul: "In heaven my masterpiece will finally be sung...". One who writes masterpieces is Maestro by the definition of it. He also said "The great ones are all dead, and I'm tired too..." meaning that he is also The Great One. I might call him The Great Maestro if only Maestro is irritating for you. ;-)

TheSeer wrote on 11.09.2009 at 22:04
@Jon

I think it is a nickname that actually Anette started...Usually before Ever Dream or Nemo,telling him to play and calling him Maestro...
I am not positive though,it may was started from his fans too,i can't remember...

Mermaid is more likely to remember...

Legeon wrote on 11.09.2009 at 22:29
I think Wrathchild is just your average every day troll. Hi goal is solely to be a shit disturber. In fact, he reminds me of a certain character on Last.fm who talks shit all the time on pretty much every female-fronted metal band thread. I wonder if it's the same guy using a different pseudonym...

CanuckFan wrote on 11.09.2009 at 23:35
hi "hi", nice to see another linguist here. :-)

CanuckFan: If I knew your screen name on last.fm, I could add you. :-) But perhaps you'd prefer to talk about this over at the forum?

Not sure why people keep feeding such a silly and obvious troll as Wrathchild. Bored? :-p

Nice interview, BTW. Wasn't aware that Finnish is starting to become so popular, especially in Argentina. :-)

It may not be an important language, but that can change. :-p Finland is a leading high-tech nation. Linux, IRC, Nokia - all Finnish.

I, for one, welcome our new Finnish overlords. Now if I could say that in Finnish ...

Almagest wrote on 12.09.2009 at 07:23
I was more bothered by the repeated misspelling of "interest" (intrest) throughout the article.

I'm interested to see what Tarja can do on her own. I wasn't particularly impressed with her last album. Sounded like it was trying to be Nightwish... it had the vocals but not the musical quality.

Emmi wrote on 12.09.2009 at 08:59
@TheSeer

I loved the phrase Nightwish DieHard talibans, haha. As for the Maestro thing, that is kind of lame if he is actually implying his music will be played in heaven on some sort of divine subwoofer. I believe we should avoid the use of the name however so as not to encourage the media circus that buzzes around Nightwish like flies around a corpse, although The Great Maestro might be more appropriately sarcastic ;) Not that I would wish to abandon my pro-Nightwish stance, I am merely being realistic in admitting that certain elements of the myth surrounding them are frustrating even to a long-time fan (and yes, there is a difference between a long-time fan and a 'fanboy'/'fangirl', namely the ability to reason).

Jon wrote on 12.09.2009 at 14:38
@ Almagest

Re. "If I knew your screen name on last.fm, I could add you. :-) But perhaps you'd prefer to talk about this over at the forum?"

Ahhhhh...here is where things get tricky for me. My Last.fm account is under my "other" internet screen name, which is attached to my blogs, and from there you can actually see my real name and learn way too much about me.

I'm not sure I trust you not to "out" me here on MFF. I like the anonymity I have here.

But please, feel free to join the forum and have a chat. Perhaps after a certain amount of "get to know you" time over there, I might feel comfortable giving you my Last.fm name.

Don't take any of this personally, though, OK? I just want to feel safe & do what I can to preserve my anonymity elsewhere on the net. :)

CanuckFan wrote on 12.09.2009 at 18:47
While Maestro still keeps churning Turd tunes, you guys might wanna check out Megadeth's latest Opus, Endgame, it's sex to my ears, and it beats the shit outta Metallica's Death Magnetic by the power of Infinity in terms of the shredgasms!!

Ravisk wrote on 12.09.2009 at 19:52
@ Ravisk

Thanks, I'll have to check that out soon, haven't had the time. Dave Mustaine is an amazing guitarist and I trust he can still pour out some good stuff. But DM was not a bad album, and it beats the hell out of St. Angst Shit LOL!

James wrote on 12.09.2009 at 21:46
CanuckFan said: "I'm not sure I trust you not to "out" me here on MFF. I like the anonymity I have here."

Why do you need such thing when you try to behave mature? The anonymity is the most precious thing for us, immature ones. :-p Maybe in real life I'm serious lawyer or doctor but here I'm immature member of Nightwish Demolition Crew. :-p

TheSeer wrote on 13.09.2009 at 00:39
@ James

If you ask me between Maestro and Mustaine, at least Mustaine even though he has a successful band in Megadeth, that old guy doesn't get complacent and at least he still has that Musical Hunger that certain bands lack when they reach their goals, case in point Nightwish, they get too popular and this is the end result, they get complacent musically.

Ravisk wrote on 13.09.2009 at 08:13
@ Ravisk

Good point. Although I wasn't a big fan of Crypic Writings, you're right about Dave for the most part. It's good to see that Megadeth is coming back rather strong again. Megadeth has a lot more popularity than Nightwish does, at least where I live (USA). But the difference is that right now Nightwish is caught up in that "female-fronted" band syndrome, where every band like them (lacuna coil, WT, Delain) ends up sounding the same and extremely commerical at the same time. Luckily, Megadeth can return to their thrash roots and start making good music again. It will be harder for a band like NW to get back to where they were UNLESS they make changes. But that may not happen, but we'll see.

James wrote on 13.09.2009 at 16:49
With all the criticism of Nightwish becoming complacent musically, we ARE just talking about DPP yeah? One album? Ensiferum had a dodgy album when Petri Lindroos first joined but have redeemed themselves thoroughly with From Afar. Not to mention that DPP was conceived and created before Anette's arrival, and that it represented all of Tuomas' musical goals at the time. So there is literally no argument for them becoming complacent because we have not heard any music by Nightwish that was written any later than probably 2006. I know the consequences of showing support for the band on this particular site, but all I am asking is that people try and THINK about what it is they are saying, a single album that you personally may not like (mainly because of the singer) does not represent a complete collapse of musical ideals. Be realistic. When they release a Queen tribute album, then I'll be prepared to jump on the bandwagon.

Jon wrote on 13.09.2009 at 18:20
Ravisk: Excellent point.

Emmi: I think that's a misunderstanding. Many people perceive MWS as a second-rate imitation of NW, but in fact it is supposed to be something entirely different.

I found that when I tried to stop comparing it with NW, it turned to be a good album - not metal, more like atmospheric, dreamy and rather melancholy soundtrackish music for relaxed home listening. The melodies are not as catchy as those of NW, but in fact I consider this to be intentional, not a flaw.

And is that not what NW and its adherents (to avoid saying apologists) have been preaching to us all the time - to stop comparing and be open-minded?

Almagest wrote on 13.09.2009 at 18:41
@ The Seer

I don't know...It's just a boundary I have right now. I don't want trolls, I don't want to have to enable comment moderation, I don't want to have to deal with hostile people on my own blog. On the other hand, people here might find my blogs totally boring and be completely put off. The point is, it's can of worms I really don't want to open right now.

CanuckFan wrote on 13.09.2009 at 18:54
@ Jon - I agree with you. I really enjoyd DPP, it's the album that got me into NW to begin with. I don't love every single last song on DPP, but that goes for every NW album. I think we need to wait, too.

As for the consequences of showing support for NW on this site...I hear you. It's taken me a couple of months to become comfortable commenting here period, let alone claim that I like Anette, NW, & Tuomas.

CanuckFan wrote on 13.09.2009 at 19:37
@Jon

This collapse of ideas we're talking about is noted not only in that one album.

With the last 3 albums,especially with Once and DPP,you can play the "find the 7 differences" game.

Everything is similar...The music,the structure,the themes...
The only different thing is that orchestra is getting used more and more.

Legeon wrote on 13.09.2009 at 20:37
So the moral of the story for band, don't follow trends blindly and just stick to the same success formula aka the early years albums and retain that sound.

Just hope that Bodom can sound like their old sound, with the succees they are getting in the US, they've been too complacent.

@James
The new Deth album well they are some Bodom styled solos that have been leaned on but heck Endgame is probably the album for 09 same as LOG's Wrath.

Ravisk wrote on 13.09.2009 at 20:54
Bands like Within Temptation, Delain, Lacuna Coil, etc might be rightly accused of staying to one compositional technique and general approach. But I find it hard to believe that even someone who disliked Nightwish could accuse the band of not having diversity in their music. Seriously, I have not heard this one before.

Where on Once or Century Child is there a song with the same atmosphere as The Islander, or an instrumental like Last of the Wilds? Where on Century Child or DPP is there a Heavy Metal song like The Siren or structured like Higher Than Hope? And where on Once or DPP has there since been an eccentric song like Beauty Of The Beast, or a soulful Metal song like Ocean Soul? The list could go on. Each of these albums has displayed a level of variety that surpasses their early output, relying less on Power Metal tropes and exploring a wide range of genres. Yes, the band uses similiar sounds sometimes, but that is because they are a band with an established style. With regards to themes, many songs on DPP draw from different inspirations, having more diversity in the lyrics than any previous album; there is a song based on a book, a song about sailors, one about the desert, and unfortunately ones about Tarja and one about Tuomas, but it's still all different stuff.

Perhaps Amaranth is like Nemo and Ever Dream, and Bye Bye Beautiful is like Wish I Had An Angel. But these are songs that the band is good at. The other day I read a review by some guy who claimed that Nightwish' music had been "infected by mallcore breakdowns" - clearly he is referring solely to Cadence Of Her Last Breath, which doesn't actually contain a breakdown in the 'core' sense of the word. He was talking crap, in other words, and had become confused in his desperation to sound authentically Metal by criticizing popular bands. Not that popular bands shouldn't be criticized; this was just a particularly stupid observation.

It seems like it is just too easy for some people to have a knee-jerk reaction against a band and disown their entire discography upon hearing something they don't like. But it is the second part I have a problem with. I can deal with people slamming Anette; yeah, she is a pop singer, and we all get bored of reading her self-indulgent blog, but to actually claim that Nightwish' music all sounds the same is, I am afraid, ridiculous.

Jon wrote on 13.09.2009 at 22:52
Jon said: "It seems like it is just too easy for some people to have a knee-jerk reaction against a band and disown their entire discography upon hearing something they don't like."

I disowned only Dark Fashion Play. :-p

TheSeer wrote on 14.09.2009 at 00:18
@Jon

I'll give you two examples from the symphonic metal genre,since this is NW's genre too.
One example of diversity,and one of stability(in a bad way).

If you want diversity and variety,see Therion.None of their albums is like any other(except for Lemuria/Serius B that were recorded and released together).
And a great example of this is Gothic Kabbalah.It disappointed many fans,because they had sticked to their heads a certain style(like Lemuria),but Therion evolved and made a really different,but still symphonic metal,full of epic moments album.
It may be good to stick to the style that made you famous,but it's good to evolve too.

And for me,one example of stability is Epica.Some of their songs are great,but looking the bigger picture you see that everything they do is done by them before...

Legeon wrote on 14.09.2009 at 01:01
End of All Hope on CC is the rip off of Wishmaster song, only simplified and with different lyrics.

Lyset wrote on 14.09.2009 at 01:11
@ Ravisk

Dave Mustaine may have a rather mediocre voice in general (that's just my opinion, don't take offense. :) ), Megadeth makes godly music despite that. That's why they are awesome. But with Anette, the music NW creates is rather bland and weak now in comparison to their older stuff. That's why they aren't as good anymore.

@ Jon

That's true about what you said about the diversity in the songs on all of their albums, but DPP could have been way better and here are my reasons:

Songs like "Cadence of Her Last Breath", "For the Heart I Once Had", and "Amaranth" are just way too poppy in general to be "Nightwish songs". "The Islander" has a cool melody and stuff, but it sounds rather generic for that type of music.

"Master Passion Greed" sounds too silly and immature instead of heavy, "Bye Bye Beautiful" suffers from bland songwriting and has too much "techno" feel to it. "The Poet and the Pendulum" has nice orchestral arrangements by Pip Williams, but it sounds like a bunch of bitching and moaning from Tuomas, plus he INSERTED his OWN name in the song. How egotisical of maestro to do that XD.

However, "7 Days to the Wolves", "Last of the Wilds", & "Whoever Brings the Night" were the only tracks I found to be the most appealing to me from DPP TBH. The diversity on NW albums are still there, that's not the problem. The problem is the lack of good songwriting, little technically from the band, Anette's vocals, and weak lyrics.

There, that sums it up! XD But yeah, that's how I feel about new NW. I hoped that answered your question Jon.

James wrote on 14.09.2009 at 07:12
Oh yeah, one more thing Jon. That term "mallcore" bugs the hell out of me to no end. I hate it and I wish I could destroy it, just like the word "emo". They deserve to be taken out of existance FOREVER! :D

But that guy who says NW has "mallcore" breakdowns is stupid. Sure they sound more similar to mainstream metal nowadays, but NW is NOT "mallcore", but they are becoming that with the direction they are heading if they aren't careful...

James wrote on 14.09.2009 at 07:16
I must admit I agree with several people here. The disappointment and moving to more acceptable radio-friendly sound started on Once with quite simple, more mainstream-like although catchy tunes like Nemo and WIHAA, also with some really boring riffs, also with more simple vocal work of the female singer, also with large use of orchestra which started to come forward, instead of showing the full abilities of musicians (players), also with the nod towards Evanescence on its cover and so on. It was the beginning.
On DPP it went further: poppy songs like Amaranth and Bye Bye Beautiful (BBB has whiny-aggressive lyrics which would fit in alternative rock or nu metal songs more), For the Heart I Once Had which is some kind of undeveloped rock ballad with also cheesy and whinny lyrics, Cadence of Her Last Breath, an Evanescence-like song only with some orchestra, Eva a simple, general rock ballad, reminds more WT's ballads. TPATP is a great song only if indeed Tuomas wouldn't put himself in the song so bluntly and with such a pose. MPG is a heavy song with the most whiny-aggressive lyrics I've ever seen that makes it very ridiculous, come to think of it, music is tend to be heavy, lyrics are kinda pathetic. Whoever Brings the Night has predictable rocky tune and some mess of dirty lyrics. Sahara is very boring song, with amorphous melody and lyrics. Islander, Last of the Wilds, 7 Days to the Wolves, Meadows of Heaven are indeed nice songs :)But the best thing about Islander is video clip and the fact that Anette only provides backing vocals there. So like one listener said about DPP: "DPP is the album about Tuomas's bitching about Tarja being a bitch and with lots of self-pity".
And Anette is only a part of DPPD (Dark Passion Play Disappointment), a part which seals the whole thing ? not very strong pop-rock vocals, very average, very mainstreamish.

Leon wrote on 14.09.2009 at 10:58
@Legeon
Definitely, I am a fan of Therion and Gothic Kabbalah is easily among their best work for me. They have been through more reinventions than Nightwish, and all of them successful. I couldn't even compare the two bands. Epica are actually getting better, and if you go on Youtube you can find samples from their upcoming album which now features members of God Dethroned as part of the band :) But I hope you would understand I do not consider Nightwish the PINNACLE of creativity and quality in music, as they are far from it, but I do feel they are still a cut above repetitive bands like Lacuna Coil. And I hope you haven't got the impression Nightwish is the only symphonic band I listen to - I've been a Therion/ Epica/ After Forever vet for years ;)

@James & Leon
Yes I do agree they do seem to rely more heavily on orchestra and guest musicians than their own band members, but Tuomas has always been a better composer than he has a keyboardist and Emppu is hardly on my greatest guitarists list. For a better example of great individual musicianship and songwriting with tastefully implemented orchestra, I would look to Celesty's latest. James I think that much like you I have just become tired of hyperbole in negative Metal criticism. Metalcore is a plague - I'm sick of hearing it, and I'm sick of hearing about it when I'm reading about decent bands!

I hope you can tell I am not just defending Nightwish; I am quite lucid of their foibles, but I do still enjoy them, even if not as much as in the innocent days of Once before all this crap. I just feel some of the criticism levelled at them is unfair and/or unnecessary. I appreciate the lengthy replies though people!

Jon wrote on 14.09.2009 at 17:05
James, just had one last thought, Columbo style. Also disregard anyone who compares a band's latest album to St. Anger, they are likely a moron with no descriptive powers who must rely on buzzwords like 'emo', 'mallcore' and the aforementioned 'St Anger' to try and make their point.

Jon wrote on 14.09.2009 at 18:05
@ Jon

No problem. :) But yeah, anything -core = crap in my books. They hate our music too so I really don't care. XP

@ Lyset

End of All Hope and Wishmaster have similarities, but they aren't the same really. Everyone says that for some reason. They are both good songs.

James wrote on 14.09.2009 at 18:17
@James

If one thing that we agree is, we hate the term mallcore ugh it's so goddamn annoying coming from immature dickheads bleargh. But yeah Mustaine voice you might get used to it over time, but for me as long they churn out good music I'm satisfied.

Ravisk wrote on 14.09.2009 at 18:27
James: In fact, Tuomas regretted the similarity himself. Do you want to disagree with him? :-p

I've listened through CC down to AFF lately and what was most striking is that I've even lost respect for Wishmaster; it's much closer to standard power metal and lacks unity in a way; more like a collection of catchy songs (someone even called it "schlager metal" once, I believe), some interesting, some less so, regarding musical as well as lyrical content. No NW album can compare to the originality of Angels Fall First, and no NW album has ever been as outstanding as Oceanborn. There's just something very special about it - a timeless, ethereal quality - even the keyboards sound psychedelic at times. That's the stuff legends and classic albums are made out of. From there, it has always been downhill.

OTHAFA is quite underrated. CC is the beginning of the end, the highway to commercial bliss and cheesy soundtrackish orchestral overkill. Once in its random variety turns out very uneven - it has a few higher highs, but also lower lows, and the orchestra is really content at leaving the aggressivity to the guitars. I can see that more clearly now that I'm not so much of a fanboy anymore.

Now perhaps you might find me overly critical, but if you've ever read the Diablo Swing Orchestra forum, you'll find that the songwriting on DPP finds no mercy there at all, even less so than Anette. According to them, it is pure boredom and no originality at all. They haven't found innovativity in Nightwish for a long time, and they are not the only ones.

Again, you might find this verdict too harsh, but the fact is that new Nightwish fanatics have a tendency to slam almost the whole female-fronted metal scene; if you apply their own high standards to Nightwish's own work, it falls much more in line with the so-called copycats lately than with the innovators. So, all we're doing is merely applying Nightwish's own standards to themselves.

People who complain about Nightwish copycats have never quite arrived in the reality where there is an entire genre of female-fronted symphonic metal now. Genres always breed a certain amount of genericness, which does not mean that every band complying with the formula is bad. Don't forget that NWOBHM bands - for example - were all terribly derivative in style, too, but there were those who made do with the formula well, or even perfected it. In Sturgeon's spirit: If 99% of female-fronted metal is crud, then 99% of any genre is crud.

Even Tuomas admitted himself at one point that innovativity is not the is-all and end-all of good music; it's just one aspect of it (remember the title of this article?), even if a very important one (I'm not sure if I would call music that lacks any element of originality good music - that would be tantamount to plagarism anyway -, except perhaps cover bands who do not strive for creativity.) You needn't invent a new genre to make good music - in fact you can't - anything you'll come up with has been done before, if not in metal then in other genres, say, progressive rock, jazz or classical music. Most of what is touted as innovative is not as innovative at all, and how could it? Just imagine if every artist did something entirely new on every new album - I'm not sure how this could work.

Artists should develop their own style, of course, and not be Coldplay who release the same album with the same songs based on the same trivial chords again and again, but if you bash the entire female-fronted metal scene as devoid of creativity, your standards are far too high and that makes you effectively just another elitist. There's no reason to be a nazi about originality.

Assume I were to start a new band, and I'm creative and skilled enough to come up with something like bluegrass metal or symphonic goregrind. What if I just don't want to? What if I prefer to make good old opera power metal? It's a good idea to stick to some already established, tried-and-true style anyway as an unexperienced band. Perhaps you WILL eventually shift your style to something more off-beat, after all, in a form of natural development.

I, for one, enjoy good copycats, too. Derivative or not (and of whom? of After Forever, who developped their style independently of Nightwish, with the same mastermind? That's like saying Liv Kristine copies Theatre of Tragedy ... or Tuomas copies himself), Epica are far more uncomprimising than Nightwish in their approach, and compared to them, Nightwish is kindergarten.

There can never be too many "clones" of albums such as AFF or Oceanborn - whether in style or in spirit - the real problem is that most imitators are far too different, not too similar!

Perhaps, if Tuomas had reined his pretence in, and shown more modesty, he'd attract less criticism for his work. Nightwish are no exception really; they suffer from the same disease of watering down and running out of ideas as the other major players in the genre. Except, arguably, Therion, but they've always been the pioneers and the avant-garde, and different and far more radical than the rest, anyway.

Final word: Sami, come back! :-p

Almagest wrote on 15.09.2009 at 17:44
@ Almagest

You've touched upon a lot of important points, but the REASON many bands even get big in the first place is originality. Nightwish perfected their style with the classical styled vocals mixed in with power metal, one of the first to do that. Though Nightwish was heavily influenced by Therion, also a great example of originality in metal with symphonic metal, and Theatre of Tragedy, where Tuomas got his ideas for the back and forth male and female vocal style.

After Forever many believe is a copycat band, but I think they combined Theatre of Tragedy and Therion, added with a sprinkle of Nightwish and that is their sound. It's NOT copycating, it's innovating and taking the genre to a new level. Therefore, After Forever is original in that sense.

The "female-fronted" metal scene nowadays is CONSISTANT of many copycats and it really sucks that originality is almost completely gone in this genre now. It's just too over-saturated nowadays and lacks the essence and true spirit it had 10 years ago. I think it got too watered down and mainstream that it's not so unique and nice to hear anymore. But power metal is where the "female-fronted" metalbands are too. The genre is just full of copycats and it seems like a neverending cycle of bands that want what the big-named bands have. You're right about 99% of a genre being crud.. :p Metalcore and nu-metal are in that same over-saturated category too, but I won't even go there with that.. XD

That's kind of where Nightwish is now. Their first 3 albums were so original and amazing that it blows away anyone that even tries to attempt it.

James wrote on 15.09.2009 at 19:50
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying everything is fine with the female-fronted metal and with the subject of women in metal in general, I have complaints in this regard myself -, but brushing the whole scene off as a bunch of copycats is a huge insult to all the talented and hard-working artists out there. This is a far bigger stereotype than the scene itself, and my biggest issue I have with the elitism and undeserved cult around Tuomas and Anette. It does a lot of damage and is a slap in the face of other artists who are no less talented and hard-working but less notorious.

Almagest wrote on 16.09.2009 at 01:56
To bring positive examples, bands like Sinergy, To-Mera or various avant-garde bands with female vocals - they are surprisingly frequent - are as far from being copycats as you can imagine. You can't judge and stereotype a whole genre only on the basis of the worst or most notorious examples. You do not really seem to be intimately familiar with the scene, James, at least not enough for such such sweeping statements. And that's the biggest problem I see with people who like to engage in genre-bashing, because - and that was actually the point Sturgeon was making - you can always pick out some of the worst examples to give the impression that the whole field is trash or pulp. In fact, I think that the general level in the field is actually quite high.

Almagest wrote on 16.09.2009 at 02:10
Oh, and of course Lumsk - I always forget them exactly BECAUSE they are so untypical for a female-fronted band.

Almagest wrote on 16.09.2009 at 02:43
James, the similarity is very striking, it is just regarding the matter of originality :) Cause his fans are always saying that he is such a genius and all his songs are so original! lol

Almagest, I can't say that I totally agree with everything you write, but I like that you write some long, full replies with really thinking them over and such. It is interesting to read.
I also liked Leon's reply a lot, quite a good analysis of DPP.

Lyset wrote on 16.09.2009 at 10:40

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