TARJA TURUNEN: False information about Polish show

18.06.2009

An information about TARJA TURUNEN´s show at Hunter Fest in Poland has appeared at festival´s official sites. That is not the case and the promoter of the festival has been advertising this and using Tarja’s name and image without the consent. Tarja would love to visit Poland for a show, but this will need to wait.

Hunter fest

Tarja´s gonna start her next tour Summer Storm 2009 in a couple of days. The band is as follows:

Tarja Turunen Vocals
Mike Terrana Drums (Masterplan, Savage Circus, ex Rage, ex Malmsteen)
Maria Ilmoniemi Keyboards
Doug Wimbish Bass (Living Colour, Madonna, Jeff Beck, Rolling Stones)
Kiko Loureiro Guitars (Angra)
Max Lilja Cello (Hevein, ex Apocalyptica)
Please check the confirmed dates of the Summer Storm 2009 tour in the “Concerts” section of www.tarjaturunen.com.

Source: TarjaTurunen.com

Permanent link to this article

NEW! Metal From Finland at TWITTER
NEW! Metal From Finland Forum

Commenting is disabled from news older than 3 months.

Comments

What a diva... bet she feels to fine for poland

Incognito wrote on 18.06.2009 at 15:06
Already second news I read about that there has been a finnish Band involved in polish advertisement without permission; earlier this month I read some polish political Party had been using some Apocalyptica song without permission...

Bohnenkraut wrote on 18.06.2009 at 15:33
@Incognito: Diva? Truly, I can't understand on what grounds you have managed to do this conclusion. With the same success they could put the name of any other popular and loved artist, does that make him/her a diva (what is the diva equivalent for male artist? :P )?

Gorko wrote on 18.06.2009 at 15:38
@ Incognito

Better read the article again!! -.-

"Tarja would love to visit Poland for a show, but this will need to wait."

She isn't a Diva and she doesn't feels to fine for Poland.
There was just a wrong information and it's good that she says that. Otherwise people might go there to see her and then they hear that she wont play there.
And it's unfair to use the name from an artist just to promote a festival if the artist doesn't take part in it.

Stupid Promoter!

Franziska wrote on 18.06.2009 at 16:47
Incognito, how the hell does not confirming a show make her a diva? That is so dumb. She has enough shows to worry about and one two days before that actually starts. So keep your moronic comments to yourself.

Jess wrote on 18.06.2009 at 17:36
Diva? Umm nooo she was falsely advertised as was Motorhead and In Flames and they too said on their sites they were not playing. Does that too make them divas?

Zeus wrote on 18.06.2009 at 17:42
Well,from what I read it seems that there have been some "money issues".I found a message from Marcelo on one of Tarja's Polish Fansites in which he says that they have signed a contract with a Polish agency A&M.The contract stated that Tarja would appear on Hunter Fest on 25.07.2009.According to Marcelo,no payment for the show has been made so far and also the Polish promoter has been making lame excuses about it.Apparently,a new payment deadline has been set but the promoter has never met it.Whatever the truth is,it is the fans who will suffer as usual.

Magda wrote on 18.06.2009 at 17:49
@ Incognito

If you have NO freaking idea about shows,don't even speak.She isn't the one to choose in which countries she will perform,but the management company.
So the fact that this promoter used her name doesn't mean that she DENIED to perform or that she felt too good...
God,Tuomas' lies have done serious damage.

Legeon wrote on 18.06.2009 at 18:03
I'm agree with Incognito i think that she has some more important stuff to do than play in Poland.... i like her songs... but hey GRIL look in a mirror...and see what a bi*ch are you... Take care Polish fans

P... wrote on 18.06.2009 at 18:04
hahaha wat a smart promoter

Hayley wrote on 18.06.2009 at 19:04
O.o

@Incognito and P...
If the promoter uses her name just to sell more tickets that doesn't make Tarja a diva... or (as Bohnenkraut says) were Apocalyptica guys a divas just to ask what is theirs when someone used their music without permission?

haatidje wrote on 18.06.2009 at 20:15
@Bohnenkraut

It was a political party from The CZECH REPUBLIC who illegaly used Apocalyptica's song.
I know that many peple have problems with distinguishing Slavic countries, but for f*** sake, stop being such ignorants & at least check the info :/

AlienEye wrote on 18.06.2009 at 21:34
Well, I love this site and I come to spend some time here and to read about finnish metal almost everyday. I also used to like the comments you people left here under the articles, because there were some quite interesting opinions. But not anymore. Look what shits you spit out everytime some news about Tarja or Nightwish appear. Diva? Oh f*ck, why? Just because some polish promoter abused her name to attract more people to that festival? Come on folks, you were born with a brain, so f*cking use it and please stop this crap. And by the way, these people behind this Hunter fest aren't the only ones, there is scheduled also another festival called Unholy fest, which is planned to happen here in Czech republic and also some polish people are the organizators (coincidence? really don't think so..) and the thing is that almost every big name like Amon Amarth, Obituary, Cradle Of Filth, Impaled Nazarene, Gorgoroth, Hate, Enslaved, Taake, Root, etc. has withdrawn from this fest, cause they didn't payed them. It seems that a lot of polish promoters are just liers and deceivers (not all of them, obviously)...

CrusT wrote on 18.06.2009 at 22:22
Hey...."What a diva... bet she feels to fine for poland"

You are a j e r k!-.-!

She is not a diva for that!That promoter is a opportunist and used her image for financial gain!!

Nameless wrote on 19.06.2009 at 03:26
@ Incognito

What did Tarja ever do to you to deserve that statement from you? How do you know, have you ever seen her in person? Nevermind...

James wrote on 19.06.2009 at 09:00
Legeon,

Get informed, her management company is her husband, dear!
NEMS Entreprise

What Tuomas' lies??? WTF are you talking about...?!
You are so weird

OceanWithin wrote on 19.06.2009 at 10:17
Well, she was contracted, but she did not receive payment.

Will you go there and perform, if you would not get paid? But, on the other hand, maybe the promoters are not liars. Maybe they are just short of cash.

It could be the case, you know. Many companies are short of cash now. It is called crisis and that is the thing, we have here, in Europe. Question is whether it is the first time this one promoter has problems to pay, or whether he/she/they USE to do so often.

On the other hand, Tarja has management company and if I am not completely wrong, her husband is her manager, so I suppose he checked the promoter before signing the contract, or do not you think so?

I seriously doubt that the other mentioned case from Czechia is the same promoter, too. I would say it is just the same crisis. If you are promoter and your pre-sales go wrong, you have no money to pay for performing bands, and so you - obviously - have problems. Mainly if you have paid for billboards already. (They are quite expensive, you can belive this)

Just let us not be xenophobic, ok? To say that Polish are cheats is just not fair AND IT IS XENOPHOBICAL, too. Have a look at their economy and try to think about their problems, ok? I would be very surprised if many festivals would happen this year, anyway. Maybe the biggest ones, but that will be just it.

mermaid wrote on 19.06.2009 at 11:08
and as for CrusT: Czech economy has very similar problems to polish - your currency has not weaken that much against Euro as polish has, but still, the weaker currency the more expensive show in the end, if your stars are paid in EUROs. Yout promoter might have the same problems as the polish one.
Seriously, guys, if these festivals are done for years, then promoters are most probably not cheats. No cheat would survive for YEARS.
Just try to calm down and consider this one option, ok?

mermaid wrote on 19.06.2009 at 11:33
It wasn't Poland used Apocalyptica song without permission it was Czech republic... Tarja is fuc*ing diva, what do you think Why NightWish kicked her out?

P... wrote on 19.06.2009 at 11:33
@ OceanWithin

Oh really?I feel so blessed now you informed me,i had no idea!

Please,think.Use the gray manner inside your head.The fact that her husband is the manager doesn't mean that THEY decide where they will play.
Do you think they say:"where to perform?....Let's go there!"
No,local organizers invite the artists.

And since when that means that she is a diva?
Oh,yes.Since Tuomas called her one.
What part didn't you understand?

Legeon wrote on 19.06.2009 at 14:36
@ P...

I challenge you to show us EXACTLY where you saw that she is a diva.
She didn't cancel anything(even then,that wouldn't mean that she is a diva),she didn't REFUSE to perform,so what exactly makes her a diva?

Legeon wrote on 19.06.2009 at 14:37
P... said: "Tarja is fuc*ing diva, what do you think Why NightWish kicked her out?"

This P... seems to have been in hibernation for the last 2 years.

It's true that this crisis is affecting festivals like everything. Not only that less people buy tickets but they are losing their sponsors too. Tarja was supposed to perform tomorrow on the international opera festival in Miskolc in Hungary. She was even announced on the official site of the festival but then removed after couple of days. The problem is the same, they lost sponsors so they couldn't pay her. But the organizers and Marcelo stayed in friendly relations and they plan to invite her again next year. :-)

TheSeer wrote on 19.06.2009 at 14:48
I don't think that people behind Hunter fest and Unholy fest are the same and I didn't said anything like that. I don't know how about Hunter fest, but as far as it goes for Unholy fest, it's the first year of this fest and if you look at the line up they announced earlier this year, it's pretty obvious there's something rotten... This fest just popped up from nothing, with such big names announced, there's no way they can pay all of them and I don't think any financial crisis has something to do with this, these people are either cheaters or absolutely brainless...

CrusT wrote on 19.06.2009 at 15:12
Kiko Loureiro, awesome!Never thought they could play together =)

Tami wrote on 19.06.2009 at 15:33
It is nice to see that at least Seer talks sense.

I juts wonder how some people think - Anette insulted all country (Greece) so Maestro had to apologize for her (see greek Metalhammer) and nobody called her "Diva".

She runs strange webpage in order to worship herself and nobody calls her "diva".

Tarja cancelled her show when she did not get payment and she is "diva" for you....

I am wondering what a word "diva" actually means in your language. If I would stop come to work because they stop to pay me, will I be "diva", too?

mermaid wrote on 19.06.2009 at 16:08
Legeon, ask your sister...I think she is a little bit wiser than you regarding the posts she does on the NW forum.
My grey manner says that a manager organises the tour together with local promoters and a tour promotions.
E.g. KingFoo Entertainement collaborates with Contrapromotion GmbH from Germany for most of euro shows.

Now use your brain and think about this:

If the band is forced to play shows like you pretend, how could Tarja and NEMS refuse, e.g. on the Once tour, to go back to the US and NW had to cancel a dozen of shows.

Honey, it's the band's management who decides what's up on the tour scheduling....

So, talk to your sister...she we tell you veeeerrrry intersting things about life and NW and Tarja.

go on the beach and stop annoying people

OceanWithin wrote on 19.06.2009 at 17:47
Well hello... I've been reading everyone's comments for a couple of months... (must be that crazy.)
Thing is I found myself agreeing with Legeon 9 out of 10 times and this is the case once again.
She's no Diva... if the promoter doesn't treat her (band included) properly there's no other choice to act differently. I think any other band/artist would react exactly the same. But that would be fair for them, right?
I don't blame not the Polish promoters, nor the Czechs. After all we don't know the reasons or the exact events why that happened. On what grounds do you judge them? And why such hate on Tarja? Sure her fans are pleased that are informed in time and not cheated. I know I would be.
Also I didn't see anyone mentioning when that was the case with Nightwish going to Greece to perform as the local promoter said, that Nightwish are egoistical etc. They as well informed the greek fanbase that this was all a trick and a lie. What's the wrong with that?

Marja wrote on 19.06.2009 at 17:53
You wanna know why she's diva... One more time, I ask why Nightwish kicked her out? You all didn't read this official letter in Nightwish official site? She wanted to fly to gigs without band , her "own" plane with husband.. She came to the studio when all job with recording stuff was done.. she changing her clothes on one gig hundred times, it's too much for you all....

P... wrote on 19.06.2009 at 19:55
P...
You're only hearing one side of the story...and that's Nightwish's side, or better said, Tuomas's side. Just because he said all those things does not necessarily mean they're all 100% true, people lie to make themselves look better, you know...there's always 2 sides in everything...

To my eyes Tarja has proven that she is not a diva at all, I had the oportunity to talk to her and she is a very grounded person, very humble, always with a friendly gesture or a smile to her fans, also very professional in her live shows.

I honestly can't say the same thing about Nightwish nowadays....but hey, that's just how I see it.
If I was from Poland I'd be dissapointed that she's not coming, but also grateful that she let me know before I bought a ticket to see her...

Manxita wrote on 19.06.2009 at 22:12
@ P...

That's what the band says.Honestly,did you even take the time to read Tarja's or Marcelo's responses?

@ OceanWithin

Where did i say that they are forced to play?Don't make things out of your mind.I said they are INVITED.They don't choose the place or the time,they just decide IF they will perform.

Legeon wrote on 19.06.2009 at 23:14
@P...: Tuomas kicked Tarja out because he was in love with her and she married other.

TheSeer wrote on 20.06.2009 at 00:48
@ Manxita

EXACTLY! There are indeed two sides to that NW/Tarja fiasco in 2005. That why it is stupid to call her a diva. Just because she was upset about this Polish show promotion does not mean she is all of a sudden a b*itch now...

@ P...

I agree with Legeon. You seriously need to read the response to Tuomas' letter to Tarja! You can interpret it anyway you want to, but don't just start saying "oh she's a diva". You do not know the entire situation.

James wrote on 20.06.2009 at 06:37
"Legeon" You seem to know a lot about promoters. Maybe you can tell us a bit about the incident in Greece which Nightwish was involved in? They could´ve easally cancelled the whole show and then sued the promoter. But they didn´t. They did not cancel the show, what they did was swallowed their pride and played for their fans. Now that´s how you do it! Tarja is differrent though,,,,,

Wrathchild wrote on 20.06.2009 at 11:54
@ Wrathchild

It's funny,because you speak without even knowing the facts.When NW came to play,there was a huge strike of bank employees going on for MANY days.No one could reach money on the bank,and i remember I hadn't been paid for many days.
But i didn't quite my job.You know why?Because then i would abandon my boss,and it wasn't even his fault.
So why would NW abandon their fans too?

To you it is an honorable thing that they didn't abandon their fans?
For me it seems like that they SHOULD play.

So,i don't even know about what happened in Poland,that's why i didn't speak about the promoter,but about the crap of Tarja being a diva.
If she was one,then she wouldn't care for her fans,therefore she wouldn't announce that.

Legeon wrote on 20.06.2009 at 13:14
Oooo.... you are soo foolish and sensitive that you believed in everything that crying Tarja said in interview after kicked out.... such a bulls**t

P... wrote on 20.06.2009 at 13:43
Tarja never said that Tuomas was in love with her (Marcelo did). But everyone who is not blind like a mole should see that after reading the lyrics to Bye, Bye Beautiful and Master Passion Greed.

TheSeer wrote on 20.06.2009 at 15:17
@ P...

And why to believe NW instead?

Legeon wrote on 20.06.2009 at 16:53
we are only people, and we believe in stuff that we want to be truth... so i believe NW, other people believe Tarja and soo what? I have my points of view... i think it's enough... Let's close the subject i think...sooo Take care all of the NW fans, and Take care Tarja fans. Peace

P... wrote on 20.06.2009 at 18:15
Hehehe mission accomplished. I just wanted to see, how you Nightwish/Tarja fags react... and you didn`t dissapoint me :) Have a nice day anyway.

Incognito wrote on 20.06.2009 at 20:35
@ Incognito

"Hehehe mission accomplished. I just wanted to see, how you Nightwish/Tarja fags react... and you didn`t dissapoint me :) Have a nice day anyway."

That comment was extremely uncalled for man. I am surprised MFF let that comment go through... You are such an idiot not only for coming on here just to say she is a diva, but to make fun of us and calling us names. We are not "fags", we are fans. Just because we have some criticism about NW and Tarja does not mean we hate them, and I am not personally insulting anybody on here like you are. You seriously need to GET A LIFE!!!! What a waste of time you are to MFF... :P

James wrote on 20.06.2009 at 23:33
@ P...

I agree. We all have our points of view over the matter, but it is good just to drop it now. :)

James wrote on 20.06.2009 at 23:35
James said: "We are not "fags", we are fans."

Well some of us are both.

TheSeer wrote on 21.06.2009 at 09:41
Would you people get over the NW stuff already?

In Flames and Motorhead too confirmed that they were falsely advertised for this same fest...so it isn't just Tarja so STFU!

Jess wrote on 22.06.2009 at 08:14
seriously, what are you all talking about?
the only thing which I would like to respond to is that one about "Maestro" being in love with Tarja - why did he wait FOR SO LONG to kick her out? She was in love with Marcelo since 2000 or 2001 - so what made him to wait FOUR MORE YEARS to kick her out?
Nobody is so slow...

mermaid wrote on 22.06.2009 at 09:36
to P..: we did read NW letter to Tarja, but questin is who is going to be kicked out now - Marco, because he does not remember one of two songs he is supposed to sing? Or Tuomas who can not play them porperly? Or their famous singer who runs a webpage just to ask whether she is too fat?
And who is behind band´s geer today? Or was it Marcelo, who arranged the contract with water company, again?
Is "Diva" the one person who was called that name, or the one person, who actes like a diva?

mermaid wrote on 22.06.2009 at 09:44
About Maestro and Diva: it's indeed interesting that he fell in love to her only when she was happily in love with Mafioso (and that happened in the year 2000). Obsessive people often want to have something only when they can't have it. In the year 2001 Maestro was working on one his numerous masterpieces, Century Child album, with famous Ever Dream song (and also some others) where he fantasizes about making love to Diva. But Diva didn't "listen to what they played" and in the year 2003 she secretly got married to Mafioso. While Maestro was working on his new masterpiece Once. Where he wrote a monumental hymn to Diva, Ghost Love Score. Most of the hymn seems to be composed before Diva's marriage, verses like "first of them true loves" reflect Maestro's hope (look EoaE DVD when Diva sings that verse how Maestro nods negatively) and the first chorus "My fall will be for you, my love will be in you, IF YOU BE THE ONE TO CUT ME, I will bleed forever" reflects Maestro's fear. And hope again. That was in vain. Because there comes the second chorus, slightly DIFFERENT "My fall will be for you, my love will be in you, YOU WERE THE ONE TO CUT ME, so I'll bleed forever". Maestro obviously wrote the last chorus after the marriage, following which Mafioso and Diva invited Maestro in their hotel room. Not for the group sex, but to tell him that his attempts to win Diva's heart are no more legitimate and that he should stop. After that conversation, the communication between Maestro and Diva completely stopped. That was the end of the year 2004. Having band members who do not communicate at all, the year 2005 brought increasing problems to the band (cancelled shows, various misunderstandings and so on) leading to Maestro's open letter to Diva.

@mermaid: Maestro said in his hymn to Diva "you were the one to cut me so I'll bleed FOREVER". 4 years might be a long time but FOREVER is much longer. ;-)

TheSeer wrote on 22.06.2009 at 16:04
The Seer, I do think that Holopainen strikes a pose of this lovelorn unhappy dude who is always suffering from something and longing for something bla,blah,bla - he has been doing it for years, I bet he just find this comfortable and convinient. I do not think he actually loved someone or cared about someone.
Imagine how easily such pose touches the hearts of the teenagers and possible fan-girls, who like to run around screaming: "Ocean Soul! Ocean Soul Our Maestro!"

Guy wrote on 22.06.2009 at 17:13
to Guy: you are SO VERY right - unhappy, unfullfiled, uncorresponded love is SUCH a ROMANTIC thing and teenagers are so moved and touched by it - it IS a pose, sure.

to TheSeer: I really enjoyed reading your respond - it is witty and smart. A bit cheeky and sarcastic, too, but God only knows how much they DO reserve it.

Still, 4 years are a long time. I have loved and I thought I would die when we broke, but in 4 years there was a lot of living to do.
My heart will miss a beat, if I would meet the guy, but otherwise.... So much things to do and such a short life to live. If we would run a succesful bussines together, I do not think I will mind.
There are couples, who are able to raise children together, though they divorced. Worse things happen.

mermaid wrote on 23.06.2009 at 16:08
Guy said: "I do think that Holopainen strikes a pose of this lovelorn unhappy dude who is always suffering from something and longing for something bla,blah,bla - he has been doing it for years, I bet he just find this comfortable and convinient. I do not think he actually loved someone or cared about someone. "

Well he definitely didn't care about Tarja back in 2000. She was attacked on the stage in Mexico (search YouTube for Tarja's attack) only 1 meter away from Maestro but he just continued playing his keyboards. You might be right that he never really loved Tarja, like a man loves a women. It might be that he was just acting obsessively, wanting to have something just because he can't have it. Btw did you read the lyrics of Tarja's song Enough, it's about Maestro. The chorus goes "Had enough symphonies of sorrow/agony...".

@mermaid: I'm glad you liked my comment. The characters all come from a book some call Nightwish Biography Book, but I prefer to call it "A Book about a Mestro, a Diva and a Mafioso". You say that there is so much to live in 4 years and I agree with you. But I think the only life Maestro had during those 4 years (and possibly longer) was writing of symphonies of sorrow and agony. There is a story in that book how a girl from Canada flirted with Maestro during a concert and he invited her to a bar afterwards. And then he even invited her to his home in Finland. And then comes a COLD SHOWER when Maestro concludes: "There was however nothing between us, we were just friends."!? Someone should explain to Maestro that when a woman flirts to a man she usually wants something MORE than "just a friendship". And the man is not supposed to flirt back, let alone invites her to his home, unless he is willing to give her what she wants. Poor groupie girl, that was probably the most frustrating experience in her life. What Tina Turner would say "how it feels to be so close and then denied". ;-)

And you mention how unfulfilled love touches teenagers. Not only teenagers! This is one of countless acclamations to Maestro from his book:

"Olli is not the first person to be impressed by Tuomas personality, but his analysis of Nightwish front man is a beautiful one: "Tuomas describes himself very aptly as an ocean soul. When I met him, I looked into his melancholic eyes and instantly understood that the distress, yearning and melancholy in his lyrics is absolutely real, The lost, unhappy, UNFULFILLED LOVE is a source of immense energy for great art, and only a person with such deep emotions is capable of creating a song like "Ever Dream". Tuomas is deeply classical and romantic soul, and in my opinion, it isn't far-fetched to compare him to Franz Schubert. "

I think that comparison of Maestro to Franz Schubert is highly inappropriate. It is wide known that Schubert died of syphilis. And that is the LAST THING Maestro is going to die of if he continues living his life this way.

TheSeer wrote on 23.06.2009 at 17:32
"The Seer . About your comment on 22.06.2009 at 16.04. There´s an organitation in the states consisting respectable people like doctors and lawyers who believes the earth is flat.And by the way, man has never been on the moon. It was all a hoax made by the US goverment. I think I saw UFO flying outside my window. Got to check it out so I´ve got no time for all you Tarjabuttlickers right now.

Wrathchild wrote on 23.06.2009 at 20:36
@ Wrathchild

Obviously,you care.I hate it when the real butt lickers,the ones of Tuomas and Anette don't want to see the OBVIOUS even if it is in front of them.Which is that he was in love with her.

It is ridiculous how you accept and believe that all the songs in DDP are self-centered(in other words,he hates and is hurt by evil Tarja and her husband-which means that you also are eager to believe that she is a bitch) but you deny that ALL pro-DDP songs were love songs.What were they,church hymns?

Please,push the "play" button in your head and think.

Let me explain this.FORGET your belief that he is a freaking God for a minute and tell me,if he wasn't in love with her,and they were just "friends",even close ones,why would he make a whole whiny SAGA of how she betrayed him,how his friends tortured him and all that.She just became greedy(according to him),so that wouldn't justify his exaggerated whining.
Only a hurt person acts like that.Which means that either he has in love and rejected,or that he overreacts.(i don't exclude the possibility to be both-i was hurt too but i didn't announce it like that).

Legeon wrote on 23.06.2009 at 22:36
To Legeon. She became annoying. Since they knew eachother for a few years he felt very uncomfortable to boot her and he had a very bad anxiety. What´s the fucking problem? Don´t make a hen out of a feather. By the way, Tuomas didn´t boot her. The whole band did.

Wrathchild wrote on 23.06.2009 at 23:04
Uncomfortable doesn't mean tormenting.He exaggerates and he overreacts.
But of course,that's what teen girls fall for.

Legeon wrote on 23.06.2009 at 23:40
And by saying "feather",you mean the very minor and unimportant thing that they denigrated her to the whole world?That they posted an open letter saying that she is a diva,that she didn't care for the fans and that she wanted to cancel shows just because she wanted to go to the movies?

The same members that now have singed with a water company,that still talk about her in every freaking interview to get some more attention,that indirectly accused her for the incident in Brazil(by accusing her fans), the band whose singer insults countries and runs a blog to advertise her clothing sponsors (but no one calls her a diva),the members that threatened not to perform in Greece because they hadn't been payed(but none of them thought that there was a strike),eventually,the members that chose to do a large amount of shows with a singer with no experience.

Yes,i suppose it's no big deal.But everyone MADE it a big deal when Tarja was called a diva.

Legeon wrote on 24.06.2009 at 13:23
Wrathchild said: "By the way, Tuomas didn´t boot her. The whole band did."

But it is Tuomas who wrote Bye, Bye Beautiful lyrics and not the whole band. And there he says to Tarja

"Someday I'll learn to love these scars
Still fresh from the red-hot blade of your words"

As far as I know what (uncorresponded) love is, you're not supposed to say something like that to someone who was only your acquaintant and colleague, NO MATTER how uncooperative, greedy, egoistic, WHATEVER she was! But again, I might be wrong. It definitiley wouldn't be the first time, 'coz I believe the Earth is round.

TheSeer wrote on 24.06.2009 at 14:15
The Seer. What Tuomas is refering to in that lyrics is when tarja stood up in a airplain and shouted " I don´t need this band. I can quit in a days notice. I have my own careere" stop quote. Those words are the scars that were still fresh when he wrote the lyrics.

Wrathchild wrote on 24.06.2009 at 18:45
LOL, Wrathchild, she didn't said these things out of the blue as that ridiculous letter claimed.
Tarja and Tuomas were in the middle of a fight and they were BOTH yelling at each other. We don't know what kind of things Tuomas said to her to provoke such an angry response...oh, wait, maybe something like a verse from "Slaying the Dreamer", ANOTHER song that Holopainen admitted having written with Tarja in mind: "You'd be nothing without me!"
After all, he's "romantic only on the paper"....

lala wrote on 24.06.2009 at 20:54
One more proof that Tarja said all these things during a fight is that "she could leave with one day's notice".Actually she had already told them in 2002 that she would leave in 4 years(after Once),so telling that makes sense only if she was angry.

Legeon wrote on 24.06.2009 at 22:31
Wait a minute! "Slaying the Dreamer" is based/caused/about Tarja? Where did you find this information?
Lol, then imho Holopainen wrote too many songs about/related to Tarja - just too many for a person who was supposed to be only his collegue )))

Kora wrote on 25.06.2009 at 00:52
@ Kora
Yes, Tuomas said in a few interviews (I don't remember if it's also in End of Innocence, sorry), that he wrote the song after one of Tarja's friend accused him of not caring enough for her. Besides, after the Wishmaster tour she did want to leave because of bad tour organization and lack of communication within the band, so they were probably talking about it that time.
Bah, the more I read Tuomas' lyrics the more blatant *to me* are his feelings for her..funny that at the beginning I didn't want to believe it..

lala wrote on 25.06.2009 at 08:28
@Kora: did you know that in the demo version of The Maestro And The Pendulum there was a verse "Would you like to rape my rotten carcass? That would make you cum, wouldn't it?" but the label forced him to omit it. And yes, he wrote WAY too much songs about Tarja for her to sing. It must have been pretty awkward for her to sing love songs to herself all the time. She said recently that she will never perform Ever Dream and Ghost Love Score again because those songs are personal for her.

@lala: this is what Tuomas said to Marcelo in his lyrics:

"Seek her
Seduce her
Tame her
Blame her
Have her
Kill her
Feast on it all"

As far as I know what jealosy is, those verses SCREAM jealosy! But I might be wrong again. Nothing new since I don't believe in UFOs.

@wrathchild: of course he didn't mean ONLY on those words from the airplane. The year 2004 was full of quarelling between them. God knows what has been said. But PRIVATE things should remain PRIVATE!

TheSeer wrote on 25.06.2009 at 18:13
To Seer, James and Legeon:

Maybe you are all right. Most probably any of you got a good point.
But I have learned that if you have way too many explanations, the simpliest one is (in 90%) the best one.

What if nothing really happened and nobody loved no-one (as HIM use to sing :-)?)

What if all Maestro´s whining is just to have something to make songs about? (because there is clearly nothing else he is able to create lyrics about)

What if it all is (and was) just to atract attention of media and fans (because as we can see, NW NEEDS Tarja, otherwise they have nothing to talk about even NOW, after all this time)

What if all this fuzz is about increasing sales figures, only?

I know it does not sound very romantic, but why do you think THERE MUST/HAD to BE love in some kind or form in-between them?
Read what you wrote yourselves - you will recognize that you recognized already that it all sounds somewhat false.

mermaid wrote on 26.06.2009 at 15:04
@ mermaid

You aren't far from the truth.The way i see things,there are 3 dimensions in all that.
The first,the one that NW guys promote,that Tuomas and Tarja were just friends,but she became so annoying and greedy that she hurt all of them(not much believable).
The second,which is the meaning behind the songs,which(whether they are real of fake) show unfulfilled love and jealousy.
The third,which is the truth,is whether Tuomas really loved Tarja or he just faked it for sales and promotion,including the attacks and bad-mouthing about Tarja.
The first and the second are the ones that are pretty obvious and clear for us to see them.
The third is the one that probably only NW guys(maybe just Tuomas) know.Only they know the real motivation behind all that-love or fame.

I know i didn't help much,but MANY of Tuomas' moves show greed,and many(songs) show love.

Legeon wrote on 26.06.2009 at 15:43
^true.
well, Tarja's husband confirmed that Tuomas loved her.ZOMG, maybe he and Tuomas are secret allies...that would be funny..

lala wrote on 26.06.2009 at 16:10
to Legeon:

I said: what if nothing really happened.?
But there is other very good possibility - what if all of it is true? What if everything of it happened, but not in the same time?
What if all of it happened and what if most of it happened in the same time?

They have been friends, since childhood. What if in the same time while continueing being friends with her Maestro came to age, when he started to picture himself his future family.

What if he started to imagine his future in being married to his muse, creating songs for her?

My 1) point is that people are growing all the time, and 20 years old Maestro did not dream about having children, sure. But 30 years old Maestro - that might be something else.

My 2) point is: maybe he was not in love with living Tarja T. (He after all did not show some real care, as you mentioned in point 3)
Maybe he was in love with his picture of maestro composing songs for his beloved muse... Many men long for women being their lovers/muses/wifes/comrades. The only way to achieve this is to have such a person in a band - otherwise he would have "long distance" relationship, which nobody prefers.

mermaid wrote on 26.06.2009 at 16:32
@mermaid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VF0BlXP-0Y

This is GLS from End of an Era. Look how Tuomas nods negatively on 3:35 when Tarja sings "first of them true loves". You can also see him crying (or faking to be crying?) when Tarja sings that verse "ever felt a way with me, just once that all I need" in Ever Dream. He was without doubt acting very obsessively towards Tarja. But whether he really loved her or was just faking we'll never know for sure. But you're right, something is FISHY! I'm even considering the possibility that Maestro is closet homosexual in denying, who persuaded himself that he loves Tarja. I was in denying of my homosexuality for some years so I know how it feels. I even had a girlfriend, that I was telling how I loved her, but now I see that it was all fake. And if you're to tell me again that the simplest explanation is the most probable one I will reply to you: when someone has 33 years and jacks off alone, him being a closet homosexual is THE SIMPLEST possible explanation.

TheSeer wrote on 26.06.2009 at 18:08
@ TheSeer

I know it's not relevant on the topic,but i would like to congratulate you for talking about your homosexuality,knowing that you'll get attacks from immature people here,especially because of your opinions.Now they will have something to pick at you.

Legeon wrote on 26.06.2009 at 22:53
@P....let me explain you why Tarja was kicked out.
She was kicked out because she and her husband interfeered with the plans of the band who wanted to tour as much as possible, like they just did with DPP tour (which lead to a breakdown of their new singer..who "casually" hired a personal manager and a tour manager after the crisis) . Tarja didn't want to do so many shows for her own health, she didn't like some venues which in her opinion were too small and they didn't have not even a changing boot. And her mistake was letting Marcelo interfeere too much on money things (sometimes he was kinda pressing the NW management to ask more money to the promoters which ,of course, in the end pissed off the promoters). So these things can be seen as "diva-ish"...but look at them in an other perspective for once. Tarja was in a band in which the comunication sucks (confirmed by latest events with Anette) ; her husband has always supported her and so she clearly trusts him..plus her husband tend to do that business stuff in his own way (if he believed they could ask more, he did ask more...Emppu commented that Marcelo actions were not always wrong). It's easy to understand that this pissed off the band , and they had their share of good points.no doubt, and absolutely right to fire her. But the band was no innocent either, NW management is no innocent either and had a big role in this crisis..so they didn't have the right, neither the reasons to fire her like that writing that stuff which is exhagerated. Because I really really doubt she is a diva.
About the travelling and the rehearsal...all bullshits. How do you think they travel now? Always happy and together? No , when they can they travel separately if it's more confortable. And about the rehearsal..you think Anette will partecipate to the creative process...well not :P . So these things were not a problem for the band and Tuomas clearly said it in the letter. But since he's also a smartass and knows there are guillable fans like you, he thought it was useful to insert that stuff in the letter to make people understand Tarja was replacable..I'm sure he didn't want to accuse Tarja for these things (not rehearsing etc) but he managed in his intent to tell she is replacable.

Some thoughts about the "love triangle"...very funny theory The Seer..it's a pity that it's a bit naive. However I DO think the jealousy thing played a role...but it wasn't the main reason for kicking her out. So I think it's true (be honest, how many coincidences there are which "proves" the fact he might have felt some strong feelings for her? many :P ) but it probably just deteriorated the relationship between Tuomas and Tarja..the decision of kicking her out was done because all the band and managemente were complaining. Surely some harsh words Tuomas said about Marcelo might come from jelousy.
Tuomas is not an obsessive freak...he was just his friend and probably developed some deep feelings along the years. The reason why they all acted like that in Mexico can't be judged by a bunch of random dudes on the internet who weren't there. So stop saying, he didn't care because he didn't save his princess in Mexico..there were millions possible reasons why he acted like that. Personally I think he cared for her in his own way.

@mermaid..so..you are basically saying his not corresponded love lyrics are just a pubblicity thing? Well those songs to me sound truly inspired..weird for a publicity shit.
Plus it was Marcelo (and Tarja indirectly) who talked about this love thing..was he in some sort of twisting agreement with Tuomas or he himself is a total freak who liked to invent some soap opera shit about the hypothethical lover (well better to say admirer) of his own wife..what for? To gain some yellow press attention? XD ;)

I don't think Tuomas is a cynical bastard/obsessive freak like some of you described him just like Tarja isn't the cold bitchy diva. I think he has his good share of bad sides but I think deep inside he has a romantic side which pop ups in his music(which it's true..imho) .

End of the rambling :P

Phantom wrote on 27.06.2009 at 02:47
@Legeon...Tuomas faked his love for her for promotion? No offence but what the hell..Marcelo faked it too?

@mermaid..who makes you think he didn't tell her and waited so much ;) . What if he actually told her but was rejected?

Phantom wrote on 27.06.2009 at 02:49
@mermaid..
"My 2) point is: maybe he was not in love with living Tarja T. (He after all did not show some real care, as you mentioned in point 3)
Maybe he was in love with his picture of maestro composing songs for his beloved muse... Many men long for women being their lovers/muses/wifes/comrades. The only way to achieve this is to have such a person in a band - otherwise he would have "long distance" relationship, which nobody prefers."

That's a possibility in a way....
Tuomas stated that he had a very emotional relationship with Tarja..without romantic connotations. so it's possible he had something like this with her...a platonic love maybe

Phantom wrote on 27.06.2009 at 02:54
@The Seer...what a stupid conclusion

"I'm even considering the possibility that Maestro is closet homosexual in denying, who persuaded himself that he loves Tarja. I was in denying of my homosexuality for some years so I know how it feels. I even had a girlfriend, that I was telling how I loved her, but now I see that it was all fake. And if you're to tell me again that the simplest explanation is the most probable one I will reply to you: when someone has 33 years and jacks off alone, him being a closet homosexual is THE SIMPLEST possible explanation."

What the hell? How do you fucking know that he is "jacking off alone" ...wanna know about all the groupies stories I heard about him? (not the canadian girl thing) ...c'mon you really think he's the poor misunderstood lonely poet all the time. Ahah
He had some girlfriends...it is well known..but he never talked too much about his private life (and he made the right choice I suppose) ..he has not been 33 years old jacking off.
Not everybody who has not a stable relationship is gay for your information..
What a bullshit..in love with Tarja but closet homosexual..LOL . Man, seriously..stops talking bs like you know him.

Phantom wrote on 27.06.2009 at 03:04
wow, Phantom, I couldn't agree more with your analysis: very well thought and, overall realistic :-) Demonizing Tarja or Tuomas is indeed exagerated, even though I'm sure they both made mistakes and admittedly the open letter thing was horribly cheap and low. But yeah, things are never black and white.

lala wrote on 27.06.2009 at 08:43
@The Seer...
"I'm even considering the possibility that Maestro is closet homosexual in denying, who persuaded himself that he loves Tarja. I was in denying of my homosexuality for some years so I know how it feels. I even had a girlfriend, that I was telling how I loved her, but now I see that it was all fake. And if you're to tell me again that the simplest explanation is the most probable one I will reply to you: when someone has 33 years and jacks off alone, him being a closet homosexual is THE SIMPLEST possible explanation."

ahah sorry dude...but this is soo wrong. I don't know why some people like to call Tuomas fag..why? Because he has not a "public" girlfriend or a stable relationship.I know many people that at adult-age they don't have a stable relationship and surely as hell they are not gay. So wrong my friend..in your gay world maybe someone who "jacks off alone" at 30 is gay..in reality world it's not always like this. I know that you gay people like to see the world all gat, but sorry to disappoint you..Tuomas seems pretty straight to me. Someone who is gay certainly wouldn't like to have "fun" with groupies on the road (and I'm not talking about the canadian girl, with whom he obviously had "fun"..he didn't stay in Montreal just to have some nice walks with her).
Not even mentioning he actually had girlfriends and wasn't the poor lonely poet all the time.
What do you know about him? How do you know that he "jacks off alone" , are you jacking off with him? :P. I really doubt Holopainen needs to jacks off alone. :D Wait..maybe he's gay, but still he has been seen in "ambiguous" behaviours with one of the Indica girl , he has extra fun with fangirls, he has girlfriends, and he also loved Tarja (oh even Tarja once said he isn't, wonder how she knew? ;))..but it is all fake 'cause in your little world is gay? LOL ..that's called fantasy, man.

Phantom wrote on 27.06.2009 at 10:39
@ Phantom

Why should Marcelo fake his love?To sell albums?He isn't an artist,Tuomas is,and lyrics about unfulfilled love are a big attraction for teenage fan girls.

Marcelo showed his love.He was the one to protect her when she was attacked,the one to comfort her when her so-called "friends" did nothing about it.

Legeon wrote on 27.06.2009 at 11:11
@Legeon
"Why should Marcelo fake his love?To sell albums?He isn't an artist,Tuomas is,and lyrics about unfulfilled love are a big attraction for teenage fan girls.

Marcelo showed his love.He was the one to protect her when she was attacked,the one to comfort her when her so-called "friends" did nothing about it. "

you misunderstood me...I didn't say that Marcelo faked his own love lol. I was contesting the theory that Tuomas writes those unfulfilled love lyrics just to attract interest and it's all fake. Of course the lyrics are written in a certain way to make them interesting. But I really believe that he writes for himself as a sort of "therapy" (c'mon..how many people do it, even if they are not songwriters in famous band) and I really think he was sincere when he talked about EverDream being directed to a speciphic person (either it's Tarja or an other woman, we'll never know it for sure). So if he really had feelings for her, I hardly doubt they were fake .
And c'mon..stop saying that Tuomas didn't care just because he didn't "protect" her in Mexico...they were playing on stage and Marcelo was quick because she was at the side of the stage not because he was her knight in the shining armour. I mean, we don't know what kind of guy Tuomas is in his private life, what kind of relationship had with Tarja..all I know it's he doesn't talk too much, doesn't express his feelings too much and doesn't show them. So maybe this was a factor which made it look like he didn't care (but probably he did, or he didn't..no one knows.). All I know is that Tarja has sometimes talked about how they were close even if they didn't talk that often, and how he actually changed towards her from a certain period . In their biography Tarja says (the period was probably CC) something like "I grew awfully close with Tuomas, we are not in touch so often but when we are it's very intensive" . Check it out..those are her own words (more or less) . So I do think he cared for her to some extent, although not showing it properly perhaps, and they were actually friends.
I don't wanna justify Tuomas..I'm sure he did his loads of bullshits, and I'm not accusing Tarja or Marcelo in any way (as you see)..all I want to point out it's that , in this mess, it's hard to make judgments because we were not there..and there are tons of possibilities why a person x acted in a certain way.

@The Seer...sorry..I answered you twice XD , I thought my answer was cancelled...I didn't want to be harsh ,man. But your closet homosexuality theory really made me chuckle XD , and I think it's also a bit naive (and a bit rude) to say he jacked off alone for 33 years.

Phatom wrote on 27.06.2009 at 12:13
@legeon...with "Marcelo faked it too?" I meant that he faked telling he (Tuomas) loved Tarja...

Phantom wrote on 27.06.2009 at 12:35
Oh my, I really surprised to hear that "Slaying the Dreamer" was also influensed by Tarja or connected with her better to say. I was shocked more to hear that "Poet and the Pendulum" had those lines in demo version. I can't explain them....I mean I can't explain why he wrote them (
But even its final version is about the whole "2005 firing situation",kinda....
So we have like 4 songs which are for sure connected/related to/about Tarja: STD, TPATP,BBB,MPG!
That's too much-too much songs about the person who was supposed to only work with him and whom he called "diva" (in a bad meaning of this word).

Kora wrote on 28.06.2009 at 02:30
@Kora..yeah, although I think it's not direct directly to her.
He said that Tarja's friend words "shook off some traumas" and that he felt like writing that song when he returned home.
I guess you are right ...too much bothering for being just a "colleague" .
Lately he was asked about the other "dream" he talked about in EverDream dedication..he said it never became true. :P

Phantom wrote on 28.06.2009 at 12:34
@Legeon: thank you for your support. ;-)

@Phantom: There are 4 characters on MWS: The Ice Queen, The Doll, The Phoenix and The Dead Boy. Tarja said in an interview about The Dead Boy: "He is one bad person who is very CONFUSED in his life". Obviously that one went for Tuomas. He is indeed a very confused person. Why else would anyone having fame, millions, girls EVEN an island of his own be constantly unhappy and think about suicide? About him being homosexual in denying, I said that is only a possibility I'm considering. However I'm FAR from being convinced into it. We'll never know what's going on ih his big head, and what's the source of his confusion. BUT we can know a lot of what's going on "outside" his head. We have his lyrics, his interviews, Tarja's lyrics and interviews, Marcelo's answers to fans questions and concert videos on YouTube. I'm glad that you, unlike MANY, take the lyrics into consideration, as can be seen from your comments. I think the lyrics are the most important of all afore mentioned because they are more personal than interviews.

@Kora: I found the exact lyrics of demo version of TPATP:

?THE PACIFIC? (LYRICS FROM DEMO VERSION)
Part of THE POET AND THE PENDULUM Song of NIGHTWISH
.....
?Would you like to rape my rotting carcass?
Dissect my heart, and desecrate my rest.
It would make you come, wouldn't it?

You live long enough to hear the sound of guns,
long enough to find yourself screaming every night,
long enough to see your friends betray you.

For eleven years I?ve been strapped unto this altar.
Now I only have 3 minutes and counting.
I just wish the tide would catch me first and give me a death I always longed for ?.

And you can freely add Ever Dream and Ghost Love Score to the list. Why else would Tarja consider them personal if they were directed to some other woman (or man? @Phantom: :P XD). Tarja was supposed to perform at this year Miskolc Opera Festival together with an orchestra. Everything was agreed but unfortunately the organizers lost the sponsors and couldn't pay her. I'm mentioning this because the organizers wanted Tarja to perform Ghost Love Score with orchestra and Marcelo's reply was: "Tarja will not perform GLS due to personal reasons.". ;-)

TheSeer wrote on 28.06.2009 at 20:32
@Phantom, yeah, agreed.

And you know what. I just being thinking.
CC album is actually the most romantic one, most love-oriented one out of all albums if to judge lyrics-wise.
There are songs like "Ever Dream" (a confession to someone, lol), "Feel for you" (also a song in which author is almost trying to push his love confession to someone with "this one is for you, for you, only for you, never think I again, I feel for you" lines), "Forever yours" (also like a confession), "The Phantom of the Opera" (song about a composer who fell in love with a singer, who is writting music and lyrics for her voice), "Beauty of the Beast" (epic love song with all this Beauty and the Beauty romance, "long lost love" thing, etc.). I do not claim anything, but it is so peculiar if to think about it -all those love dedications to....someone, lol

Kora wrote on 28.06.2009 at 20:42
@The Seer,
Thanks for the exact lyrics. Somehow they seem...dirty, nasty, even perverse, I don't know, but I got this feeling after reading them((. It is good he changed them for the album version, cause otherwise it would have sounded "way too much" if you know what I mean. But still, they exist and leave their mark.
About this GLS thing, I admit I find it somehow quite classy of her to leave it out of her performances, since she finds it too personal. But also I can say that I hope, she will change her mind one day and sing it, cause it is a truly symphonical piece of music which goes perfectly only with the voice like hers.))

Kora wrote on 29.06.2009 at 01:26
@TheSeer...well..fame and money don't always make happiness (especially fame, I believe) . Balance and self-satisfaction make it. Tuomas has constantly talked about his low self esteem , the inability to forgive himself.
But I don't think Tuomas is constantly t"suffering" . Keep in mind that those are lyrics..and things tend to get exhagerated. Of course he takes his emotional turmoils as inspiration for writing lyrics..but I suppose he's not always like that.
Surely he was really upset after the firing thing...but I'm not sure if he was close to suicide. He explained that TPATP was a metaphorical suicide, something to get rid of his demons and his self hate at that time.
Anyway..it seems that there is something constantly bothering him as you said. I guess that this turmoil and "unbalance" help him to write music.
For those reasons you said..I also think he had some feelings towards her. Too many coincidences.

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 03:04
@But I don't think Tuomas is constantly t"suffering" . Keep in mind that those are lyrics..and things tend to get exhagerated. Of course he takes his emotional turmoils as inspiration for writing lyrics..but I suppose he's not always like that.@
Sure he is not always like that ,it is just a pose -an image of tragic lovesick person attracks lots of pity,caring and attention. He himself maybe is not like that all the time, but it is a gold mine to get more and more new fans and to keep them, especially girl fans. ;)

@Surely he was really upset after the firing thing...but I'm not sure if he was close to suicide. He explained that TPATP was a metaphorical suicide, something to...@
...attrack more attention. Just think of it. A suicide in song! Gosh, everybody would talk about it, everybody would pity him, fangirls would drool over it forever and ever. And it would make more people to hate that big bad ex-singer - it was her fault that he committed this suicide, even only metaphorical. :)
It doesn't matter that he took the whole stuff from Edgar Poe's story and thus it is not SO original. This song does its trick and works the very way I mentioned above. On some people.

Guy wrote on 29.06.2009 at 10:51
@guy
"Sure he is not always like that ,it is just a pose -an image of tragic lovesick person attracks lots of pity,caring and attention. He himself maybe is not like that all the time, but it is a gold mine to get more and more new fans and to keep them, especially girl fans. ;) "

I disagree...have you ever written lyrics or a diary? Well I can tell every normal person likes to exhagerate writing those..even if you are not a superstar or someone who seeks attention. You put the bad feelings into them and exhagerate them . So..don't come here and saying that Tuomas lyrics are just an attempt to get fangirls..sounds like a bullshit you bashers like to invent (after Tarja's firing of course, Im sure that all of you watching EOI were thinking "omg poor Tuomas , he's such an artist" , and shit like that) . Of course he writes them in a certain way to make them more interesting, but the basic idea maybe it's true..don't you think?

You seem like you didn't exactly read TPATP lyrics..of course it's connected to the split..but he's actually talking how much "he hates himself" as he explained several times. They don't make me think as Tarja made him "suicide" lol. I don't think we have to question every fucking song he writes now..just because you think it's everything about publicity.
So..maybe he was faking to be sad for publicity also the day at Hartwall Arena..and no, I'm not talking about the documentary or the concert..but when the cameras were off. What a great actor indeed.
And even better...maybe also Tarja was faking to cry at her press conference..imagine how interesting "the poor sweet girl victim of the rock n roll monster" .
C'mon people, seriously..why don't you make less movies in your heads.

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 11:31
@Of course he writes them in a certain way to make them more interesting, but the basic idea maybe it's true..don't you think? @

I didn't say in my posts that he never put true feelings in them. Especially in the beginning of the NW career, he surely put those. But obviously in time it became his image,a pose, not only his actual need, to write those painful lyrics about him beign lonely . So he has a double benefit that way.

"You seem like you didn't exactly read TPATP lyrics..of course it's connected to the split..but he's actually talking how much "he hates himself" as he explained several times. They don't make me think as Tarja made him "suicide" lol."

Actually I've read a couple of comments of NW fangirls who were screaming with their posts that they hate Tarja so much cause it is because of her their sweet precious Tuomas killed himself in the song, LOL! That's why I said that. Damage is done.

"And even better...maybe also Tarja was faking to cry at her press conference..imagine how interesting "the poor sweet girl victim of the rock n roll monster"

According to devoted Tuomas's, new NW fans she was, of course she was, she is EVIL. But only she cried once, and Tuomas has been writting about his endless lovelorn sufferings for nearly decade with non-stop.

"Im sure that all of you watching EOI were thinking "omg poor Tuomas , he's such an artist" , and shit like that)"
No, I wasn't. I never was a drooling fanboy.

Guy wrote on 29.06.2009 at 13:27
@Guy...I guess it was obvious that I was jocking when I mentioned Tarja's press conference. It was just an example to say that , imo, people have too malignant thoughts sometimes about this matter .

There is no doubt that Tuomas' "tragic" lyrics are also part of the show, but I'm still convinced about the fact he actually puts feelings behind the songs, at least some of them (maybe I'm naive :P ) . It's like doom metal/gothic lyrics, I doubt those guys who write them drown in seas of sorrow everyday. ;)

About the stupid Tuomas fangirls (the worst are Anette fangirls thoug LOL ) ..I never said all NW fanboys are clever.

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 14:48
Guys, I just wanted to say that you most probably read too much in lyrics.
When I was a teenager, I even won national competition in lyrics - and the poem I won with was a bit erotical, but VERY about love and it was printed in magazines here - and so everybody was SO SURE I am SO IN LOVE.
I actually was - I was in love with Michael Jackson. Seriously.
When I visited one school few years ago, they did read some of my poems and even this one and naturally asked me, who it was about.
I did not tell anybody. :-)

mermaid wrote on 29.06.2009 at 15:45
to Seer: what if there is one even more simple explanation - Maestro is so selfish, that he never ever loved any real woman.

If you read his descriptions of woman he is looking for - there is no such a woman on this planet.

That might be because no one is perfect enough for Maestro. And that could be a reason why he never introduced any of his girlfriends publicly.

Still, I think you read too much in lyrics. There might be just sales figures, you know.

mermaid wrote on 29.06.2009 at 15:58
well, and as for Tarja crying (or Maestro having tears in his eyes) - why do you think this MUST be related to some special feelings?
I saw many people to be kicked out of their job - and many of them did cry or at least they had tears in their eyes...
And I honestly do not believe there was some love in the air.

If you are kicked out - you just could feel bad about that. You do not have to be in love with your boss, you know?

And the same goes for Maestro during the last concert on DVD - he knew what he was about to do - and split after 9 years, split with one of closest friends and bandmates..
He might feel sorry.
I sometimes do feel sorry, too, delivering these kind of news, too, but there is no love included, sure.

mermaid wrote on 29.06.2009 at 16:09
@mermaid
"Still, I think you read too much in lyrics. There might be just sales figures, you know."

well..it has been him saying that some of his lyrics are personal to him, that they are from his everyday life. Obviously you might think he fakes..but to be honest I don't think he fakes. I mean what the hell..the things he writes in his lyrics are just normal problems/turmoil of a person..not something out of common. Why he must be such a freak who can't love anybody? I mean..isn't he a normal human as well or what?
Plus he's not the only one telling that he expresses himself through the lyrics...Even Tarja noticed that :P.
Casually, some of his lyrics match the situation of a not corresponded love. Casually he acted that way with the split. Casually Marcelo told he was in love with her (lol maybe Marcelo wanted media attention too, could be) .
And I didn't mention Tarja press conference to imply that, not at all. Of course it could be all a giant coincidence or all fake..but I can say I have some reasons to think there was something true under this rumour

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 17:46
@Phantom: there's nothing I hate more than people ranting about commiting suicide and then NOTHING (and it happens that I know two such persons in my life X-/). What you call "a metaphorical suicide". But I (and Guy also) call it a way of manipulating with people, by making them to pity you. And that's exactly what Maestro is doing.

@Kora: I knew that Forever Yours, Feel For You and Beauty of the Beast are love songs dedicated OF COURSE to the same person like Ever Dream. But I never realized that chosing to cover Phantom Of The Opera was NOT a coincidence. OF COURSE, a song about a composer falling in love to a singer for whom he wrote music and lyrics! Thank you for opening my eyes on that one. ;-) And btw, if my memory serves me well there is a verse in Beauty of the Beast "you told I have the eyes of a wolf, search them and find beauty of the beast". I bet Tarja once told him that he had "eyes of a wolf" (possibly in the childhood since they went to the school together) so that one was for her, for her, only for her...

Guy said: "According to devoted Tuomas's, new NW fans she was, of course she was, she is EVIL. BUT ONLY SHE CRIED ONCE and Tuomas has been writting about his endless lovelorn sufferings for nearly decade with non-stop."

+1

Phantom said: "the worst are Anette fangirls thoug LOL"

Totally. Did you check Anette's new blog on www.anette-olzon.com? She posts there couple of times EVERY DAY things like this one

"Today I wear denim trouser suit from Top Shop, Body from Monki, black old blouse (dont remember the brand), belt from Top Shop and shoes from Dolce & Gabbana."

And then her fangirls drools how "beautiful she is".

mermaid said: "If you read his descriptions of woman he is looking for - there is no such a woman on this planet."

So no woman is "the right one" for Maestro. No woman is the right one for me too. :-p

Btw mermaid, Tuomas told "Nothing can stop my love to Tarja!" in Tarja's and Marcelo's hotel room. Marcelo told that. He might be greedy and corrupted mafioso but he is not a liar.

TheSeer wrote on 29.06.2009 at 19:32
@The Seer...well sorry if I think there is actually a sense in a song like TPATP , maybe I'm manipulated too lol or too naive to think it's , partially, genuine. And I don't pity anybody..he brought this to himself, so. Plus I don't know Tuomas to actually pity him. :P

Yes The Phantom of The Opera is not a coincidence...as he explains it here (2:27)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e7JZ6o5SbE&feature=channel

Lol why do you think Tuomas ideal woman doesn't exist. If I'm correct he just described a simple girl next door..what so absurd? He said Belle would be his ideal girl..of course you don't have to take it literarly since it's obvious he's not going to marry a cartoon lol (btw..doesn't she remind a certain person :P) . I can't see anything weird :D .

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 20:54
@Phantom: thank you for the interview, Tuomas confirmed everything we've been guessing. When the interviewer asked him why they decided to cover Phantom of the Opera, Maestro replied: "It's such a good song and it's also a song which kind of relates to Nightwish". So a song about a composer falling in love with a singer he writes his music to is RELATED to Nightwish. Now THINK Phantom, THINK! Who is composer in Nightwish? Who is/was singer in Nightwish? And Maestro continues: "Phantom [pointing to himself], Opera [pointing to Tarja] lalalala, Beauty, Beast everything...". And look how he truly enjoys Tarja's company and her smiling. OK, I discard my "closet homosexual" theory, I do think that Tarja could have made him really happy. And Belle. And unfortunately that's all. :-( Btw, look Tarja's reaction when Maestro says that Nightwish are "one beauty and four beasts". And also when he says that Tarja is the most charismatic person he has ever met. And when he says that she is the best interpeter of his music and his fellings. She smiled all the time. :-) I think he could have had her if he had started doing all that he started on Century Child BEFORE she fell in love with Marcelo.

TheSeer wrote on 29.06.2009 at 21:33
@ The Seer
You are welcome. And after that interview (thank you Phantom) where Tuomas said that this song relates to NIGHTWISH a lot, could have been made by NW....well, that doesn't seem like a coincidence for sure. And they do not perform it live any more.Also may be a tip. Or may be not. I do not claim anything.

@Phantom
What person does she remind in your opinion? :)

Kora wrote on 29.06.2009 at 23:21
@Kora and TheSeer you are welcome :)

@Kora I was only jocking that she reminds me of Tarja ;). I'm not completely serious 'cause I don't know Tarja personally. And it sounds cheesy :D ;)

Phantom wrote on 30.06.2009 at 02:11
Maestro wants mystic girl next door. "I couldn't imagine being with a person who doesn't like trekking or Disney's cartoons or wouldn't be able to use an outhouse. The woman of my dreams has natural values and she's not a motor mouth but a mystic girl next door."
Then, he wants to live out of nature - not going to shop anymore.
So, technically, girl of his dreams should be a good farmer - skilled with vegetables, pigs, cows, chicken, etc. YET enjoying cartoons and trekking. Despite this she shoud be mystic girl next door. Naturally beautiful (Belle) and off course, full of understanding.
Honestly, I can not wait while he will get married. That will be a woman to see. So far I just see it as a reason why he did not introduce his numerous girlfriends to press.

mermaid wrote on 30.06.2009 at 09:43
Still thinking you see too much in lyrics - he would write these songs Tarja or not - just wait and see.

Because what about would he write songs if not about love??

Tax declarations, perhaps? :-)

mermaid wrote on 30.06.2009 at 09:46
to Phantom: ok, I will write you some beautifull lyrics and I will say that it is about you. Not directly, I just will give some hints to let people here guess. :-)

Would that mean that I am in love with you? Let us test it.

mermaid wrote on 30.06.2009 at 10:35
I have JUST discarded my "closet homosexual" theory about Maestro and then mermaid comes with this:

"Maestro wants mystic girl next door. "I couldn't imagine being with a person who doesn't like trekking or Disney's cartoons or wouldn't be able to use an outhouse. The woman of my dreams has natural values and she's not a motor mouth but a mystic girl next door."
Then, he wants to live out of nature - not going to shop anymore.
So, technically, girl of his dreams should be a good farmer - skilled with vegetables, pigs, cows, chicken, etc. YET enjoying cartoons and trekking. Despite this she shoud be mystic girl next door. Naturally beautiful (Belle) and off course, full of understanding.
Honestly, I can not wait while he will get married. That will be a woman to see."

This reminds me so much on me, while I was in the closet. I had always wanted a girl that likes that and that, knows to do that and that... But I didn't want her to be able to make me wet and horny because I didn't know a woman can do that to a man. And it seems pretty obvious to me that Maestro doesn't know it either. Spending 2 weeks in Disneyland, being 33, does NOT disprove it. :-p No wonder about the list of wishes then.

OK now I'm confused because I have increasing amount of evidence to 2 theories:

1. that Maestro is closet homosexual
2. that Maestro was acting obsessively towards Tarja, showing his "love" to her on every step, but ONLY AFTER she was happily in love with Marcelo. NOT BEFORE.

Contradiction? Or not?

TheSeer wrote on 30.06.2009 at 19:52
mermaid said: "to Phantom: ok, I will write you some beautifull lyrics and I will say that it is about you. Not directly, I just will give some hints to let people here guess. :-)

Would that mean that I am in love with you? Let us test it."

If you would add to that that your lyrics are "your personal diary and a mirror of your soul", then, under the additional assumption that you are not a liar, it would mean that you're in love with Phantom. And Maestro said exactly that. Don't tell me mermaid that you think our Maestro is a liar!? *gasp, horror*

TheSeer wrote on 30.06.2009 at 20:53
@mermaid...seriously, get a life and better understand of english. I'm even wasting time with you lol.

"Maestro wants mystic girl next door. "I couldn't imagine being with a person who doesn't like trekking or Disney's cartoons or wouldn't be able to use an outhouse. The woman of my dreams has natural values and she's not a motor mouth but a mystic girl next door." "

So..what's so wrong and weird with that?
He likes nature so he'd like a person who likes nature too..does it mean she doesn't need to go to buy food? WTF are you talking about lol XD . Did he say I want a farmer?
With "outhouse" he mean stuff like cottages , being outside and not a person who is everytime like "ewww I'll ruin my nails" . And even if he wants to live out of nature..who are you to judge, seriously .
And The Seer..who are you to think he's a closet fag just because of this..I mean that's insane lol. I hope you are jocking. Wait..are all straight men supposed to say "I want a hot woman who makes me wet and horny" , that's what a dumb horny teenager says..not a man.
Why laughing at someone who likes Disney at 30 years old. I'm 25 and I still like Disney too...I should laugh about myself too?..I'm glad I don't lol, and I'm glad I don't spend time judging a person I don't even know just for the sake of it. XD

Lol I even thought you were making interesting points...seems like I was wrong , reading at the readiculous conclusions you 2 made.

Phantom wrote on 30.06.2009 at 22:36
Phantom said: "So..what's so wrong and weird with that? "

It's wrong and weird about that, as mermaid already said, that such woman does NOT exist on this planet. So to summarize, Maestro loves only women that do not exist, or exist only in cartoons and "mystical next doors". And also some existing ones, but only when he cannot have them. When he can have them, then he doesn't love them.

TheSeer wrote on 30.06.2009 at 22:56
@TheSeer...ahaha are you his psychologist or what? Seriosuly..don't make me laugh

"It's wrong and weird about that, as mermaid already said, that such woman does NOT exist on this planet. So to summarize, Maestro loves only women that do not exist, or exist only in cartoons and "mystical next doors". And also some existing ones, but only when he cannot have them. When he can have them, then he doesn't love them."

Maybe we live on different planets, because I do think he described a pretty normal girl and I know many of them...
Makes me wonder which kind of women you and mermaid got to know..lol

Phantom wrote on 01.07.2009 at 00:40
Phantom said: "Maybe we live on different planets, because I do think he described a pretty normal girl and I know many of them... "

Would you please acquaint Maestro to some of them. You might save Nightwish from the impending death.

TheSeer wrote on 01.07.2009 at 12:32
@TheSeer..ahah I doubt he needs me to be introduced to women ..and I'm pretty sure he's not currently spending his time jacking off by himself

wait..you said only Tarja could save him..maybe you should ask Tarja to save NW LOL

Phantom wrote on 01.07.2009 at 14:41
@Phantom: I bet if Tarja had unexpectedly answered positively to all those Maestro's love offers that our Ocean Soul would have answered: "What!? You really want to make love with me!? *gasp, horror* But you're a married woman! Err, it's not a good moment now, maybe some other time. Bye! *runs off to Disneyland*". XD XD XD XD

TheSeer wrote on 01.07.2009 at 15:32
@Phantom said: "@TheSeer..ahah I doubt he needs me to be introduced to women ..and I'm pretty sure he's not currently spending his time jacking off by himself"

If you want to say that he has a girlfriend, then why didn't he bring her along to Disneyland? Instead he was going there with "some friends". Remember that he said his girlfriend MUST be a Disneyfan (among other things). But he leaves his girlfriend, who is even a Disney fan, alone to wait him for weeks with thoughts like "what if he's cheating me with Belle there in Disneyland"?

And btw, where did he manage to find grown up friends who are willing to spend 2 weeks in Disneyland with him? God bless Internet. Unless of course his "friends" were 12 years old...

TheSeer wrote on 01.07.2009 at 15:50
@The Seer , he doesn't like to talk about his private life, period. And actually if he has or not a girlfriend it's non of your business..unless you don't want to be his next girlfriend XD XD . Maybe that's why you are complaining that much about with whom he goes out. lol.
In 2001 he went to Disneyworld with Alexi Lahio and Kimberly Gross (who were in the USA at that time and met up with him who was traveling around the world)...see? even the evilz grown up metalheads go to Disneyland LOL.

Phantom wrote on 01.07.2009 at 17:14
to Phantom:

well I am a woman and I do not know any woman who would fit to Maestro´s expectations.
Actually, as TheSeer already guessed from what I typed - that was not the only point I tried to make.

I never search for man this way, having a list of expectations.
I do have a list of requirements, when I try to hire a person to do a job.
But to have such a list for "love of your life"? It is WEIRD, it is like a shopping list and love actually never comes to meet your "job decription". Not in real life,anyway.

From what I know people fall in love first and then they are trying to find a compromise between two different personalities. That is how it is in real life. Onyl teenagers have "idols" to be met.

Actually, Phantom, as far as I do not speak English at all, it is difficult to explain. Just fall in love and observe.

mermaid wrote on 02.07.2009 at 14:49
Phantom said: "@The Seer , he doesn't like to talk about his private life"

Only about Tarja's.

"unless you don't want to be his next girlfriend XD XD"

Sorry he does not fit into my "list of wishes". XD

mermaid said: "I never search for man this way, having a list of expectations.
I do have a list of requirements, when I try to hire a person to do a job.
But to have such a list for "love of your life"? It is WEIRD, it is like a shopping list and love actually never comes to meet your "job decription". Not in real life,anyway. "

This is SO true. As I've already said I had a list of wishes while I was in the closet. But then I came out (thank you Berlin :-)) and I realized how absurd was that. Since I'm nonsmoker, I reduced my list of wishes to only one wish - I want my man to be nonsmoker. But then I fell in love to a guy who was smoker. I just couldn't help it, whenever our eyes would meet my heart would start beating faster. And all that WHILE he was smoking! So much about the list of wishes. From now on, my only wish is that when our eyes meet, my heart would start beating faster. Regardless of him being (non)smoker or what music he likes... And about Tuomas' list of wishes, only a person who has NEVER loved (the way I've just described) can have such a list.

TheSeer wrote on 02.07.2009 at 15:35
So very true, Seer.

But for all we know, Phantom might be 11 years old, with a wall full of Maestro´s posters. What is not a shame - it is just a phase of life for all of us.

So, he/she would have to wait, fall in love and watch to see. These things are impossible to be explained but easy to be experienced. :-)

mermaid wrote on 02.07.2009 at 15:45
"well I am a woman and I do not know any woman who would fit to Maestro´s expectations."

poor you, you must live in a sad reality if you find those things he said extraordinary XD

"Actually, as TheSeer already guessed from what I typed - that was not the only point I tried to make. "

So what the fuck is your point exactly. That a person who says these things never loved anybody ? wait..in your world a person like this is either a closet fag (like the Seer, the example of all virtues lol..maybe you'll find out you are a closet heterosexual one day if you keep thinking like that) or a freak. So what if a person at 30 hasn't fallen in love yet? It means he/she has an handicap or is closet homosexual?

@The Seer..if this is your theory it means your precious Marcelo has actually LIED XD , how do you explain this? Maybe you will pull an other absurd theory from your magic hat LOL.

Is that your wise conclusion? If it is, it really disgusts me. Since you are all so wise and experienced of life (by the way I'm 25, but probably twice your mental age judging from your answers) enlighen me about how the fuck these 2 things he said (perhaps during the interview he did not even think that much about it, and surely not imaging that a bunch of weirdos would find it absurd lol) are related to what kind of person he is, to Tarja or to Nightwish.

"I never search for man this way, having a list of expectations.
I do have a list of requirements, when I try to hire a person to do a job.
But to have such a list for "love of your life"? It is WEIRD, it is like a shopping list and love actually never comes to meet your "job decription". Not in real life,anyway. "

So if somebody asks you "what would be your ideal man (such an incredibly weird question lol) ?" what do you answer? I don't make a shopping list? You just fall in love with everybody? Wow lucky you then. Because I knew that 2 people may fall in love because they share also common interests and values and not because cupid strikes them with his arrows lol. That's called crush, attraction, not love. Of course if you fall in love with someone and he doesn't share all your tastes or opinions it's not the end of the world. I doubt that Tuomas would panick if his gf doesn't love Disney to no end...but you obviously don't know when things in interviews shouldn't be taken that seriously. LOL .

From my previous posts I thought it was clear I'm not a horny teenager drooling on NW

Phantom wrote on 02.07.2009 at 16:52
"Only about Tarja's. "

Tarja even beats him...since it was her and her husband telling the world Tuomas was writing songs for her

Phantom wrote on 02.07.2009 at 17:10
Phantom said: "Tarja even beats him...since it was her and her husband telling the world Tuomas was writing songs for her "

No it wasn't Tarja but only Marcelo. He was answering the questions of fans (mostly Tuomas' die-hard talibans who were further insulting him and Tarja through those questions). And no he does not beat Maestro because it was his open letter that provoked those answers. It there had been no open letter, there would have been no answers from Marcelo.

And about "closet homosexuality" theory I have already told you that I'm just considering it. And I take your posts into consideration too. You often have a point. So after this long one from you, I'm again doubting it more. I suggest that we wait some time. Time will tell the best. You say that a man having 30 who has never loved is not wird. OK. But what about a man having 50 who has never loved? As I said time will tell. ;-)

"maybe you'll find out you are a closet heterosexual one day if you keep thinking like that"

Haha, that's a good one. You have just gave me an idea for the transparent for the next year Christofer Street Day - "I am heterosexual in the closet!". XD

Btw, I'm 25 too. ;-)

TheSeer wrote on 02.07.2009 at 18:11
About reading lyrics, it was always the thing that Tuomas's lyrics are so personal, so intimate, lalalala stuff, so that's why I think if to start to judge him that's better to do starting from stuff he writes, cause it is more personal than his interviews and other stuff. So I do not think I read too much of them.
BTW, Mr. Poet himself confessed his attitude about love-thing when he wrote "romantic only on the paper" line. He pretty much admitted at that point that it is some kind of pose. You know, I think that the girl of his dream could exist. There is nothing extra special about her so why not.

But I think he doesn't really want to find her- cause when he finds her, he would lose the cause to write lovelorn songs with him being always lost or misunderstood dude. Cause it would be silly to write such songs again and again if you have someone to love by your side. He would loose his image and the main subject of all his music. It is not interesting to be misterious Oceansoul with loving girlfriend/wife and bunch of kids. Not so catchy.

And about the thing that he has turned his sufferings into brand and manipulate, well, duh, he points out his oceansoulness as much as possible. I laughed really a lot when I saw him at the gigs in that boat with "Oceansoul" name on it. clearly just to impress those stupid fangirls and give them one more reason to show that he is such a poetic-romantic maestro, come on. That was so chessy and ridiculous. He is going to far with it.

And by the way he also has that song The Escapist. You know escapists are not only people who run from cruel big bad world into fairyland of the dreams. These are also people who run from reality and responsibility, from serious decisions, who are immature and do not want to grow up mentally.

Guy wrote on 02.07.2009 at 23:40
@Phantom, I got your joke ;)

I really want to ask people here, since they know so many things.
Was DPP the first album where Tuomas used word "whore" and f*** word? Cause I don't remember he used it in previous albums. Wander, if story with Tarja has anything to do with it, lol!

Kora wrote on 02.07.2009 at 23:46
@The Seer
Lol, I think I'll drop the war axis since I'm tired of being on the defensive tone XD , we are discussing about everything and nothing. And even if I don't agree with some things you said, you seem a funny guy with a sense of humour XD

"I suggest that we wait some time. Time will tell the best. You say that a man having 30 who has never loved is not wird. OK. But what about a man having 50 who has never loved? As I said time will tell"

XD I think you'll simply never know something about Tuomas private life (unless he get married or he becomes a father). Even if he has already a stable relationship. I think that it's not weird for a person (at whatever age) to not find his/her true love . Some things are not bound to happen, and there are several factors which might compromise a stable relationship. Just think for a moment about Tuomas lifestyle, always working and always far from home, a life full of "excesses ". Do you think a girl who doesn't share the same lifestyle would accept it? ;) I don't think so.
And his character..I don't think he's easy at all. He seems a grown up child, not expressing his feelings, a bit of a loner probably, not easily approachable.

@guy
"BTW, Mr. Poet himself confessed his attitude about love-thing when he wrote "romantic only on the paper" line. He pretty much admitted at that point that it is some kind of pose."

For me that verse it's pretty clear. He can't express his feelings in reality, but through his lyrics. And he might be romantic deep inside, when he writes them..but in reality he's not. I didn't interpretated it as "my lyrics are a pose". It has been pointed out many times , by Tuomas himself, but also by other people, that he's not really a talkative guy and prefer to show his feelings through his music. I don't find it that absurd.

"He would loose his image and the main subject of all his music. It is not interesting to be misterious Oceansoul with loving girlfriend/wife and bunch of kids. Not so catchy. "
He said that NW next album won't be about whining but rather about positive stuff in life because he's tired of whining lol. So you never know..maybe he found himself a girlfriend and he's planning to have a bunch of kids ahah XD .
I agree with you about the boat..it was so ridiculous lol.

"And by the way he also has that song The Escapist. You know escapists are not only people who run from cruel big bad world into fairyland of the dreams. These are also people who run from reality and responsibility, from serious decisions, who are immature and do not want to grow up mentally."

Absolutely..and I think he didn't deny to be like that. He said he runs away from discussions and responsabilities.

@Kora..I don't think he used so many harsh words before. I don't know if it has anything to do with Tarja. Perhaps indirectly..because DPP is full of negative feelings he used more negative words, and in general a couple of his songs sound more hopeless in a way ( For The Heart I Once Had, it's kinda cheesy but at the same time very negative.."Time will not heal dead boy's scars, time will heal" ).

Between I found it kinda funny that even Tarja used the image of the Dead Boy XD

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 00:26
Guy: nice one, really.

Phantom: I fell in love first time when I was 29.
But you remind me what I thought about love when I was younger - I thought that all this love crap is juts to much a do about nothing and I believed that I will be much more smart then this and find me a man who wiil share my interests, opinions, values,... And that a marriage should be a union of two people who respect each other.

Then I met the man who was a reason why sun shined on Earth, why birds have been singing like crazy, why rain was followed by sparkly rainbow.

Man, whose children I wanted to have. And women do not feel this way about ALL men, you know?

Do not give up - it might come sooner then you think.

mermaid wrote on 03.07.2009 at 09:45
@mermaid..well I understand but it hasn't worked for me like that so far. I think I never fell in love with a person who doesn't share at least something with me . I don't say one has to be the exact copy of yourself..but at least something in common. And almost all the couple I know share this. Maybe it's different in everybody, what can I say.

So your point is that Tuomas does everything for marketing lol ..and there is no possibility on earth that he was really in love with Tarja because he's just an egoistical freak who doesn't love anybody but himself ; even with all those coincidences XD and Marcelo's declaration (which were lies then, why? So he was playing the same NW game, wanting to gain media attention risking to get himself and Tarja ridiculized by people? Smart XD ) . Tuomas was faking his supposed love for her too, just for marketing XD . Sorry but it Doesn't sound too convincing for me ;)

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 10:10
Phantom:

The famous case of a man looking for woman with a shopping list was HRH Prince of Wales, Charles.

The list has been created by all nation, with a help of advisers, after long and carefull thinking and planing, too.

Lady Diana met all items on that list well.

But we all know how it ended.

What you want is not always the same thing you need. Actually, it often that when you receive what you want - you have serious problems.

All concept of fairy tales about gin in a lamp, or Mr. Pratchett´s book "Eric" etc. could give you more hints about how fishy is wishing.

We use to say "Beware with wishing! Gods might be listening.."

mermaid wrote on 03.07.2009 at 10:57
@guy and mermaid, just to show you some examples of what I meant , this is a quote from Nightwish biography said by Tarja. Now I know you don't like that book, but I doubt Tarja got paid to say these things or she was licking his ass or she was fooled by Tuomas fake lyrics, since she knows Tuomas better than us I suppose.

"It had not gone unnoticed by Tarja that Tuomas expressed his feelings through music ? The melodic power of music and the fact that music can be beautiful even at its heaviest , has always meant an awful lot to Tuomas. He?s able to show all his feelings in his music . I think Tuomas is very brave (lol I disagree) , because not many people can do the same. He may not look like a macho man but when it comes to music it?s all or nothing?"

So..do you guys ever met him or got to know him to say he has faked so much just for the purpose of selling records? XD

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 11:00
Phantom:

No idea, what are you talking about in second part of your responde? Are you sure you are still responding to me?

And as for the second comment: What Tarja said about Tuomas was completely normal - she was interviewed in time she was a vocalist and it is common politeness to say nice things about your band mates, you know?

She still did not call him "Maestro" and do not flatter him so widely like Anette does, ist is FAN to read his blog, actually!

So if we would folow your logic we will belive athat Anette is SO DEEP in love with Maestro that she would NOT SURVIVE a day without his healing touch...

Which might be even true, as far as they use to hug even after one HOUR of separation.... hm, interesting thought.

mermaid wrote on 03.07.2009 at 12:29
@mermaid...you didn't answer my question :P

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 12:35
Phantom, you gave me none.

mermaid wrote on 03.07.2009 at 13:01
@mermaid , are you dumb or what?

Am I saying that Tarja was in love with him? Where the fuck did you take this .
You and Guy keep saying how much he fakes into his lyrics just to sell . And I answered "it has been said many times by Tuomas himself and by people around him that he expresses himself through lyrics because he's not so comfortable to voice his feelings and it's easy to write them down (and with feelings I mean everything, not just love but also hate, anger , whatever) " and I added that I can't see anything absurd in this and I don't think he faked. So I quoted you what Tarja said about this thing without thinking she was flattering him or something . Did you understand or I should repeat it for the 3rd time? XD
So according to you she was just being "polite" telling that he's honest in his lyrics but knowing that he's an asshole who fakes? XD To me Tarja was simply being honest and not just "polite" , while you are doing big films in your head thinking he's an absolute moron.

"She still did not call him "Maestro" and do not flatter him so widely like Anette does, ist is FAN to read his blog, actually!
Which might be even true, as far as they use to hug even after one HOUR of separation.... hm, interesting thought."

Are you that fucked up? XD Which theory?
LOL So you come talking to me about how wise you are about relationships and then you say such a HUGE bullshit like this? XD If it was a try to be funny it was just pathethic.
First of all..Anette is not flattering no-one . If that's flattering (because of a stupid nickname "maestro" that you are taking so seriously, should I start mocking Tarja's nickname ,"angel", too because it's the proof she is a diva? ) then she should be already married to Emppu for example and to the rest of the band too lol (since she says nice things to everyone, and she already said many times her closest friend is Emppu). She hugs EVERYBODY after the concert . Does it mean she is in love with everyone of the band ? LOL , or when she hugs Emppu during the songs, she is in love with him? . Hugging is such a CLEAR PROOF of being in love with someone for you? Ahah , Tarja hugs her bandmembers too after her concert ..maybe she's in love with Mike Terrana. XD

Seriously..that's so ridiculous XD , you are keeping saying stupid conclusions just to prove your thesis. You accuse Tuomas for being an immature freak but you are not acting that different you know . Drop this ridiculous anger and hate towards a person you don't even know just because you don't like anymore what he does (and because he fired your precious goddess) and don't treat the other people who are giving you different opinions like complete idiots.

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 13:23
@mermaid and where the hell you get Tuomas has a blog? LOL

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 13:26
Guy said: "I laughed really a lot when I saw him at the gigs in that boat with "Oceansoul" name on it."

He should be aware that boats, and especially the old ones like that, can easily sink due to the wind and waves. ;-)

Kora said: "I really want to ask people here, since they know so many things.
Was DPP the first album where Tuomas used word "whore" and f*** word?"

I haven't read his lyrics for almost 4 years but I think DPP is the first time. Just check Slaying the Dreamer and if you don't find those words there you won't find them anywhere else.

Phantom said: "@The Seer
Lol, I think I'll drop the war axis since I'm tired of being on the defensive tone XD , we are discussing about everything and nothing. And even if I don't agree with some things you said, you seem a funny guy with a sense of humour XD"

If you were a woman I would say the same about you. But since you're not, I'll keep my mouth shut. :-p

"He can't express his feelings in reality, but through his lyrics. And he might be romantic deep inside, when he writes them..but in reality he's not. I didn't interpretated it as "my lyrics are a pose"."

My favourite verse from his lyrics is that one from Deep Silent Complete: "The age will say this poet lies..." XD

"He said that NW next album won't be about whining but rather about positive stuff in life because he's tired of whining lol. So you never know..maybe he found himself a girlfriend and he's planning to have a bunch of kids ahah XD ."

Or maybe it will just be a whole album about Disneyland. XD

"Between I found it kinda funny that even Tarja used the image of the Dead Boy XD "

Did you know that it's Tarja acting The Dead Boy in "I Walk Alone" video? It took me some time to realize it, but I cracked up when I finally did. XD

Btw Phantom I think that the best word to describe Tuomas is "confused". Tarja said that about The Dead Boy and it's NOT a coincidence.

mermaid said: "Then I met the man who was a reason why sun shined on Earth, why birds have been singing like crazy, why rain was followed by sparkly rainbow. "

And then when the loving is over you ask yourself: "What the hell did I see in him?". Happened to me couple of times. :-p

TheSeer wrote on 03.07.2009 at 13:35
@mermaid plus I've always said that in my opinion it CAN be true that he had some feelings for your goddess (since Marcelo mentioned them) because I can't see nothing weird in that. I'm not saying he had surely feelings for her (although the impression is pretty strong) because it's still words against words. Instead you are so sure that he can't love anybody because you know everything and you know he's a jerk LOL .
So, keep accusing people who think Tarja and Marcelo are idiots, keep accusing Anette (who doesn't really have a role in this thing ) but you are doing exactly the same thing blind fangirls do . lol

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 13:42
@mermaid :
"Phantom, you gave me none."

Actually I gave 2 XD :

"So your point is that Tuomas does everything for marketing lol ..and there is no possibility on earth that he was really in love with Tarja because he's just an egoistical freak who doesn't love anybody but himself ; even with all those coincidences XD and Marcelo's declaration (which were lies then, why? So he was playing the same NW game, wanting to gain media attention risking to get himself and Tarja ridiculized by people? Smart XD ) . Tuomas was faking his supposed love for her too, just for marketing XD . Sorry but it Doesn't sound too convincing for me ;)"

And (mainly this one) :
"So..do you guys ever met him or got to know him to say he has faked so much just for the purpose of selling records? XD"

but you probably run out your fantasious theories so you have nothing clever to answer me .

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 14:08
Phantom said: "@mermaid plus I've always said that in my opinion it CAN be true that he had some feelings for YOUR GODESS"

Tarja is not mermaid's godess. She actually likes only 2 Tarja's songs. You should be more careful when judging other people. Just like me! :-p

TheSeer wrote on 03.07.2009 at 14:16
"If you were a woman I would say the same about you. But since you're not, I'll keep my mouth shut."

Lol . Out of curiosity , what makes you guess my sex? If I'm a man or a woman? XD
That's an other valid point to say what kind of person someone is without knowing him/her XD :P

"My favourite verse from his lyrics is that one from Deep Silent Complete: "The age will say this poet lies..." XD "
XD you guys keep answering me with something which is only slightly related with my actual point (as these lyrics taken out of contest)...ding dong, makes me think I hit soft spots XD

"Did you know that it's Tarja acting The Dead Boy in "I Walk Alone" video? It took me some time to realize it, but I cracked up when I finally did. XD "

ahah yes I know, she looks slightly creepy XD

"
Btw Phantom I think that the best word to describe Tuomas is "confused". Tarja said that about The Dead Boy and it's NOT a coincidence"

Might be. He's also very smart when it comes to ambitions XD , something I personally dig

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 14:21
"Tarja is not mermaid's godess. She actually likes only 2 Tarja's songs. You should be more careful when judging other people. Just like me! :-p"

So, if she doesn't like neither NW , neither Tarja what the hell she's doing here? LOL
It might be not her goddess, but it seems like it yours and some other people who post here goddess. Anyway I don't really care, the fact is that she seems just blindly one sided. And she sounds so malicious and mean that she ends up talking enormous bullshits. For the sake of what? if she doesn't like anybody lol.

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 14:44
Phantom said: "Lol . Out of curiosity , what makes you guess my sex? If I'm a man or a woman? XD "

Haha, another good one from you. Only your name I guess. :-p

"ahah yes I know, she looks slightly creepy XD "

This is my all-time favourite You Tube comment on Tarja (I walk alone):

"This chick is beyond? freaky.

not only is she ugly as fuck & cant sing worth shit, but this vid is beyond disturbing,i swear im going to have nightmares for a month.

creep. "

It obviously comes from someone who has never heard either of Tarja or Nightwish but was pretty shocked with what he saw. XD

TheSeer wrote on 03.07.2009 at 14:59
@The seer , it's not a strictly male name

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 15:14
Phantom, I never said who loved whom and who did not love whom and I told you actually, that I had a feeling that you are not responded to me few times.

I honestly completely do not care who loves whom. They all might have sex 3 times per day like rabits and I would not care less. They might hate each other and I would not care less.

It is Seer who is trying to analyse their lyrics and find clues NOT ME. I am the one who says to Seer he does read too much in any lyrics.

I typed how I fell in love with a man, (and now I am going to type it VERY SLOWLY for you) WHO WAS NOT TUOMAS HOLOPAINEN and the sun was hining, birds singing like crazy and rain washed the rainbow and your respond was:

"So your point is that Tuomas does everything for marketing lol ..and there is no possibility on earth that he was really in love with Tarja because he's just an egoistical freak who doesn't love anybody but himself ; even with all those coincidences XD and Marcelo's declaration (which were lies then, why? So he was playing the same NW game, wanting to gain media attention risking to get himself and Tarja ridiculized by people? Smart XD ) . Tuomas was faking his supposed love for her too, just for marketing XD . Sorry but it Doesn't sound too convincing for me ;)"

Well, I have no idea what about and to whom you are talking.

mermaid wrote on 03.07.2009 at 15:21
@MFF staff

Tero, I did not know I MUST BE Tarja´s OR NW fan to be alowed to come here! Why do not put a sign saying that, so people would be warned? :-)

@ Seer:
I was guessing Phantom to be a girl. Why did you think she is a boy?

mermaid wrote on 03.07.2009 at 15:23
@mermaid "Well, I have no idea what about and to whom you are talking"

about this maybe? XD LOL

"What if all Maestro´s whining is just to have something to make songs about? (because there is clearly nothing else he is able to create lyrics about)

What if it all is (and was) just to atract attention of media and fans (because as we can see, NW NEEDS Tarja, otherwise they have nothing to talk about even NOW, after all this time)

What if all this fuzz is about increasing sales figures, only?"

And why do you think I'm a girl now XD

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 15:29
mermaid said: "@ Seer:
I was guessing Phantom to be a girl. Why did you think she is a boy?"

The name I guess. But I could be wrong. Unlike Maestro I'm ready to admit mistakes and to learn from them.

We have a new mystery waiting to be solved. Is Phantom a girl or a boy? Let us start gathering clues. I'll go first:

Phantom said: "ahah sorry dude...but this is soo wrong."

As I've already said English is not my mother tongue but I find it awkward for a girl to say "dude" to a dude?

TheSeer wrote on 03.07.2009 at 15:32
@mermaid

ehm...well I would be in serious shit if I would try to maintain this website only for NW and Tarjafans now would I? In fact this wouldn't be Metal From Finland at all...I think I would call it www.dramafromfinland.com and we would have two subsections:

nightwish.dramafromfinland.com
tarja.dramafromfinland.com

Tero Tolkki
Metal From Finland

MFF Staff wrote on 03.07.2009 at 15:32
@TheSeer , maybe I'm confused just like your Maestro XD

you'll never know it XD

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 15:36
Phantom,

to find out how is your respond sometimes related to mine is impossible even with a compas and a map.

Still no idea what are you talking about.

mermaid wrote on 03.07.2009 at 15:44
Phantom said: "@TheSeer , maybe I'm confused just like your Maestro XD"

Confused? That's the last thing I would say about you DUDE. ;-)

TheSeer wrote on 03.07.2009 at 15:45
@TheSeer why? XD never say never, isn't it your philosophy in your answers XD

@mermaid , yeah sure lol

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 15:51
@MFF staff

Tero, nice one. As usually.

@Seer:

I did not read every od phantom´s words, his replies are many times way too long for me. And you know as far as I am not coherent enough and do not speak english, I normally do not have so much time. So, you would have an advantage here.

Actualy, do you think the word "dude" is not for girls? I feel strange when I use "guys" or I am called that, too. And I am woman. It might be awkward in english, but it depends on language from which sheúhe does the translation.

If it does not sound weird in original language, she/he might just translate.
And as far as we do not know her/his nationality, we can not know.

i would say it is a girl because of the way she analyses every beetle flying around.
On the other hand she is so easy in calling people she does not know !sick minds! etc - that is too harsh for girl in the age of 25. So judging from this, it is maybe a boy.

But, seriously, which boy in this age would elaborate so much like this one? On almost every comment? You are a boy in the same age, you should know better.

mermaid wrote on 03.07.2009 at 15:53
"But, seriously, which boy in this age would elaborate so much like this one? On almost every comment? You are a boy in the same age, you should know better."

the world is not black or white XD
And the Seer makes gossip like an old maid LOL

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 16:28
Phantom said: "@TheSeer why? XD never say never, isn't it your philosophy in your answers XD "

Well I'm surprised how well you know me. XD Btw, it's your fault I started to use this smiley so much. XD If that's what makes a post "coherent" then I can only thank you! XD

mermaid said: "I did not read every od phantom´s words, his replies are many times way too long for me."

Ah how sweet of Phantom. :-) Sacrificing HIS life to save yours! This is so noble and classy and down-to-earth from him. Like Anette, except that he is a dude. XD

"Actualy, do you think the word "dude" is not for girls?"

I think so. I think it's only for guys2guys addressing. But I might be wrong. Natives?

TheSeer wrote on 03.07.2009 at 16:29
Seer,

In which way phantom saved me? i actually do not feel too much saved today.

Still - about word "dude" - are you sure, that PHANTOM KNOWS that this is only for guys2guys addressing?

He/she could be NOT native and just use it wrong.

But as I said, the way he treats people does not respond to a girl, but to a boy. Then again, the way how he elaborate on everything would say something about him, do not you think so?

If it would be a girl, then i can imagine her only as one of these hard rock chicks, in black leather, with a lot of pearcing everywhere, nails painted to black, but worn of, sitting on a motorcycle, chewing gum in mounth,... you know the type.

mermaid wrote on 03.07.2009 at 16:42
I wouldn't engage into public analysing of Phantom's personality. It's not a nice thing and I do it only with Tuomas. Ocean Soul deserves every single post he gets from me.

TheSeer wrote on 03.07.2009 at 17:11
So true. Let us finish here, ok?

mermaid wrote on 03.07.2009 at 17:13
@mermaid said: "So true. Let us finish here, ok?"

Ok, but Phantom has to promise that he will be a good boy too. :-p

TheSeer wrote on 03.07.2009 at 17:56
@TheSeer , I'm good :P

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 22:50
Guy made an interesting point.

"But I think he doesn't really want to find her- cause when he finds her, he would lose the cause to write lovelorn songs with him being always lost or misunderstood dude. Cause it would be silly to write such songs again and again if you have someone to love by your side. He would loose his image and the main subject of all his music. It is not interesting to be misterious Oceansoul with loving girlfriend/wife and bunch of kids. Not so catchy."

Didn't he talk about that in EoI or somewhere? That longing, if it was fulfilled, if his imbalance would disappear, if he found peace of mind, or his "centre within", yadda yadda, all that esoteric hippie stuff, he feared he would lose his creativity.

Actually I think that maybe he has already lost it.

And his pseudo-suffering is all in vain ;)

I think he is a really naive and childish person at times. But on the other hand, I think he also cultivates that just to escape responsibility. So when the label puts out loads of bullshit, he can say he has no idea what's going on, he just nods everything off, but he likes to stress it was not his idea to release a zillion versions of DPP. But of course, he won't refuse to cash in the profit ... very nice. Spare me the gritty details of business, get to the side that is called "profit". I don't care where my money comes from.

Talk about screwed up ethics ...

Almagest wrote on 04.07.2009 at 07:02
@Almagest :

It wasn't Tuomas, it was Jukka who wondered what if he found that balance and fulfilled that longing. And I didn't hear them talking about "yadda yadda hippie bullshits" , Tuomas said he wished to find some balance and being able to feel happy for what he did and forgive himself. That's a pretty normal thing everybody could experience in life at a certain phase. But you guys are probably too perfect, morally superior and sure of yourselves to even know what it means. I'm sure that if you knew or experienced that you would find it that absurd and wouldn't mock it. ;)

"And his pseudo-suffering is all in vain ;) "
His latest "pseudo suffering" came out from 2005-2006 period. Sorry if I'm so naive and not cynical like you guys, but I actually think he might have had a couple of reasons for feeling bad. :P

Phantom wrote on 04.07.2009 at 10:30
The really cynical people here are the band members, I'm sorry to say - because I actually used to like them before I realised the mechanisms set into motion by the Open Letter.

Almagest wrote on 04.07.2009 at 15:09
"The really cynical people here are the band members, I'm sorry to say - because I actually used to like them before I realised the mechanisms set into motion by the Open Letter."

You skipped my point :P

Well, I might assume you are not speaking entirely objective here if yours it's just an angry reaction to the open letter. ;)

Or that coming back to the point expressed in the discussion above , Tuomas is a cynical bastard therefore Marcelo lied in his answer about a certain love thing, if you came to the conclusion that all his lyrics are a vain pose lol. Therefore they are all (marcelo included) a bunch of drama queen? XD

Phantom wrote on 04.07.2009 at 16:14
Thanks for the replies you guys and girls.

And I have one more thought. I hope it is ok . In the song "Live to tell the tale" there lines: "Dark chambers of my mind Locked around the neck of my love None of you understand I love you I just did"

I just wander if these words meant for someone concrete or they are just common love image or something.

Kora wrote on 04.07.2009 at 20:01
"For me that verse it's pretty clear. He can't express his feelings in reality, but through his lyrics. And he might be romantic deep inside, when he writes them..but in reality he's not. I didn't interpretated it as "my lyrics are a pose". It has been pointed out many times , by Tuomas himself, but also by other people, that he's not really a talkative guy and prefer to show his feelings through his music. I don't find it that absurd. "

For you this verse is clear and for me it's also clear. And about romantic deep inside, not talkative guy and etc. It maybe partly still true, it certainly was true years ago, when he was young dude who started band, but after years it transformed also to that everlasting image of "Oceansoul" he needed to maintain - because it was popular, catchy, it was good for his image and for band's image, for making money and for fan girls. It also was good for him - to take all responsibility from him for all his actions bad or good. Cause to them he can always strike the following pose "I'm so romantic deep inside, so shy, so lovelorn, I'm suffering, do not touch me". It worked perfectly - everything he did and does are supported by all his fandom and fangirls in particular who scream in return "He is Maestro, he is shy, he is lovlorn, how dare you say anything agains him!" LOL
"romantic only on the paper" sounds exactly as "I'm romantic only in my lyrics, but I'm not so romantic in real life" to me.

"He said that NW next album won't be about whining but rather about positive stuff in life because he's tired of whining lol. So you never know..maybe he found himself a girlfriend and he's planning to have a bunch of kids ahah XD .
I agree with you about the boat..it was so ridiculous lol. "

Could you give me link to exact interview with these words, please?
I'll believe in non-whining album only when I heard it, until then he may say anything he likes. All his previous works were more or less of whining kind. So a happy album from him sounds like joke.

"Absolutely..and I think he didn't deny to be like that. He said he runs away from discussions and responsabilities. "

And is it a good and noble thing? I do not think it is a good thing at all.

"Between I found it kinda funny that even Tarja used the image of the Dead Boy XD "

She used an image to show Tuoma's true nature? Well, duh, she is an evil diva, did you expect something from her? And lovelorn suffering oceansoul wrote something like "have her,kill her". Duh, he is so shy and touching isn't he? Droooooling, LOL

Guy wrote on 04.07.2009 at 20:32
Guy , it could be ALSO for the image , as I said ,as comparison ,I doubt all doom metal songwriters are bathing in a sea of sorrow everyday lol . Every musician has his/her own style of writing lyrics, his/her own themes. So I don't doubt that part of the lyrics are also part of the show. What I'm trying to say, without success, is that I think there is also some truth behind the lyrics. If he's inspired by the event/thought x he will write lyrics about that exhagerating them a bit. I Wonder how many times I have to repeat it to make it clear.

""romantic only on the paper" sounds exactly as "I'm romantic only in my lyrics, but I'm not so romantic in real life" to me"
Didn't I say the same? but we could go on forever and ever lol
For me they say : "I'm a jerk, I'm not romantic although I'd like to be".

"And is it a good and noble thing? I do not think it is a good thing at all. "
Did anybody say it's noble and good? LOL No it's not, it's called being a cowdard . Happy? XD

"She used an image to show Tuoma's true nature? Well, duh, she is an evil diva, did you expect something from her? And lovelorn suffering oceansoul wrote something like "have her,kill her". Duh, he is so shy and touching isn't he? Droooooling, LOL "

Care to elaborate? I think Tarja's dead boy has nothing to do with Tuomas honestly , I just found funny the fact she used the same image . Do you know the meaning of the word FUNNY or I have to explain it to you? I was not sarcastic or criticizing her . XD
I hope you are aware that those words "Have her, kill her" are referred to Marcelo and it doesn't mean "I want to have her, I want to kill her" (which wouldn't make sense lol) .

I'm sure you'll laugh at me (because Tuomas is the ultimate evil robot lol ) but I do think Tuomas is still a bit shy person which doesn't make him "poor him, he's soo shy, gentle , romantic" and bullshits like that. Neither does mean "He's posing as the mysterious shy guy just to sell records" . It's called character , you know. A person could be shy or extrovert , no matter how famous he/she is. Tarja is the perfect example, she's certainly more confident (as Tuomas) , she remained shy though.

Could you stop answering me like I'm the ultimate Tuomas fanboy who drools on him just because you disagree ?

Phantom wrote on 04.07.2009 at 22:03
"is that I think there is also some truth behind the lyrics. If he's inspired by the event/thought x he will write lyrics about that exhagerating them a bit. I Wonder how many times I have to repeat it to make it clear."

I understood you perfectly the first time. I also said several times that I think there could be still some truth behind his lyrics, but only some, more like a memory of oldself. Final touch for me was that boat thing that totally proved to me that this whole lovesick thing of his has turned into a show. Shy person simply won't show off his oceansoulness,lovelorness and stuff to crowd at the gigs.

"Didn't I say the same? but we could go on forever and ever lol
For me they say : "I'm a jerk, I'm not romantic although I'd like to be".

Ok, I didn't understand that you meant this very thing. Agreed here.

"Did anybody say it's noble and good? LOL No it's not, it's called being a cowdard . Happy? XD"

Yep, happy.

"Care to elaborate? I think Tarja's dead boy has nothing to do with Tuomas honestly , I just found funny the fact she used the same image . Do you know the meaning of the word FUNNY or I have to explain it to you? I was not sarcastic or criticizing her . XD
I hope you are aware that those words "Have her, kill her" are referred to Marcelo and it doesn't mean "I want to have her, I want to kill her" (which wouldn't make sense lol) ."

You think so, but according to the Turunen's comments it has connections with him and besides Dead boy theme was always his gadget , cause it was him as an image of the child who could not grow up.
I got that you were joking. I also was joking about diva thing. So we are even here, lol
Those words are referred to Marcelo, but they are about her - he, that shy, lovelorn dude offers through the song to another dude to kill his wife - kinda.

"I'm sure you'll laugh at me (because Tuomas is the ultimate evil robot lol ) but I do think Tuomas is still a bit shy person which doesn't make him "poor him, he's soo shy, gentle , romantic" and bullshits like that. Neither does mean "He's posing as the mysterious shy guy just to sell records" . It's called character , you know."

For a shy person he shows off too much.

Guy wrote on 05.07.2009 at 00:13
@Guy ,
"Those words are referred to Marcelo, but they are about her - he, that shy, lovelorn dude offers through the song to another dude to kill his wife - kinda."

I'm not sure if I understood you. Those lyrics refers to the fact (from Tuomas perspective) Marcelo "feasts on it all" lol . Seeking, seducing, taming, having, killing her lol. That's the way I understand them it's like Tuomas is telling to him "you are seeking her, taming her etc , feasting on it all" .I know it's absurd and quite harsh to "accuse" him of seducing his own wife XD .

"For a shy person he shows off too much"

Yes ON STAGE ;) , off stage he could be a different person . And I never denied success made him more self assured nowadays. Again, Tarja could seem a different person on stage than the person she looks off stage. That's my humble opinion.

About the "Dead boy" : well why Tarja would have referred to him for one of the characters of her album?
"but according to the Turunen's comments "
Which comments? I thought Tarja said anything was actually referred to NW. I didn't understand if Boy and the Ghost as something to do with that "dead boy" character or not. If so, why Tarja would have referred to him with those lyrics? (I know she didn't write them but she said she had a sort of storyline, that's why those characters)

Phantom wrote on 05.07.2009 at 02:29
@Kora
"And I have one more thought. I hope it is ok . In the song "Live to tell the tale" there lines: "Dark chambers of my mind Locked around the neck of my love None of you understand I love you I just did"

I just wander if these words meant for someone concrete or they are just common love image or something."

That's a dedication , if I'm not wrong, at the end of the song. I have no idea honestly , he mentions Saint in Cain's mask .

Phantom wrote on 05.07.2009 at 02:33
"That's the way I understand them it's like Tuomas is telling to him "you are seeking her, taming her etc , feasting on it all" .I know it's absurd and quite harsh to "accuse" him of seducing his own wife XD ."

I understood it like an imperative directions to that dude - like do this, do that. It sounds more like that.

"Yes ON STAGE ;) , off stage he could be a different person . And I never denied success made him more self assured nowadays. Again, Tarja could seem a different person on stage than the person she looks off stage. That's my humble opinion."

I'm sorry but if on stage he shows off so much, it is really silly for me to imagine that off stage he is such a lamb humble and shy. WTF, I'm not so naive and I'm not a kid to believe such stuff. The same goes for every performer.

"About the "Dead boy" : well why Tarja would have referred to him for one of the characters of her album? "

Because he fitted perfectly for that character and also through that she expressed her attitude about him or something like that.

"Which comments? I thought Tarja said anything was actually referred to NW. I didn't understand if Boy and the Ghost as something to do with that "dead boy" character or not. If so, why Tarja would have referred to him with those lyrics? "

That this character dead boy is a person who is very confused most all the time in his life and thus displeased with it. Lyrics say a lot here, cause they are quite plain. Just read it. Even if she didn't write the lyrics, she chose them and they pretty much gave away the whole thing.

Guy wrote on 05.07.2009 at 14:48
@Guy
"I understood it like an imperative directions to that dude - like do this, do that. It sounds more like that. "

Sorry to say but for me it has no sense that he's ordering her husband (who he doesn't like and blames for everything) to "seek her, seduce her, have her" lol XD

"I'm sorry but if on stage he shows off so much, it is really silly for me to imagine that off stage he is such a lamb humble and shy. WTF, I'm not so naive and I'm not a kid to believe such stuff. The same goes for every performer. "

It's not a question of being naive or a kid. Ask to performers.
With fans he's not arrogant, in my opinion. When people stopped after the concert were the bus was parked , he was the only one from the band who actually cared to stop and sign autographs to everybody. Not even Anette did. (on the contrary Tarja, who is supposed to be a "diva" for NW fangirls lol , did ;) ) Shy doesn't mean necessairly lamb nor humble.

"That this character dead boy is a person who is very confused most all the time in his life and thus displeased with it. Lyrics say a lot here, cause they are quite plain. Just read it. Even if she didn't write the lyrics, she chose them and they pretty much gave away the whole thing."

I doubt that Tarja cares to express her attitude towards Tuomas in this way (she already expressed it with Enough, I guess ) , she already did openly. And why would she address him such "sweet" sympathethic lyrics ? ;)

All he wanted was a toy
All he needed was a gentle heart
To lead him through the dark
When his dreams are running wild

I mean she said several times he was not her friend. Why would she actually care? XD I doubt she wants to bring him on the right way lol.

Phantom wrote on 05.07.2009 at 18:44
"Sorry to say but for me it has no sense that he's ordering her husband (who he doesn't like and blames for everything) to "seek her, seduce her, have her" lol XD "

On the contrary, since he doesn't like him and blames for everything he says those nasty sort-of-directions to do so with another person who he also hates. And the importan part is "kill her" btw.

"With fans he's not arrogant, in my opinion. When people stopped after the concert were the bus was parked , he was the only one from the band who actually cared to stop and sign autographs to everybody. Not even Anette did. (on the contrary Tarja, who is supposed to be a "diva" for NW fangirls lol , did ;) ) Shy doesn't mean necessairly lamb nor humble. "

I heard another stories of him ingoring fans entirely - in the face. Not so shy he was.

"I doubt that Tarja cares to express her attitude towards Tuomas in this way (she already expressed it with Enough, I guess ) , she already did openly. And why would she address him such "sweet" sympathethic lyrics ? ;) "

Dead boy in that her song appeared long before Enough appeared, perhaps long before she was going to do Enough song. Enough was more straigh expression, BATG was more smooth and allegorical. She probably would cause she was or is actually sorry for him being such big child, with all his fake oceansoulness, whinning and all his running from real life routine. After all she knew him at school or something. Women sometimes are sorry for people they used to know, it is their nature, they are more compassionate. Maybe even "diva" Tarja is.

Guy wrote on 05.07.2009 at 20:11
@Guy sorry man, but you totally got those verses wrong.

"On the contrary, since he doesn't like him and blames for everything he says those nasty sort-of-directions to do so with another person who he also hates. And the importan part is "kill her" btw."

Could you please explain the sense of telling Marcelo to seek, seduce, tame, kill whatever her ? LOL
It's not imperative..it means "you kill her, you seduce her, you seek her etc etc , you feast on it all" . Because Tuomas opinion was that her husband manipulated Tarja.
And if he has always hated her why the hell Marcelo told he was in love with her (and jealous of Marcelo) . Who is lying now? Marcelo too? LOL Although an famous latin poet once wrote "Odi et amo, quare id faciam fortasse requiris" XD (I hate you and I love you, perhaps you ask why I'm doing this)
To me it makes much more sense mine interpretation ;) .

"I heard another stories of him ingoring fans entirely - in the face. Not so shy he was"

oh, casually I heard a couple of the same stories also about Tarja when she was still in NW . But I never thought she was a diva for this ;). Maybe it's just called "wrong day" ? :P
I'm sure that at their place you would enjoy every single minute while writing countless autographs, posing for countless pics, listening to countless people you don't know. ;)

"She probably would cause she was or is actually sorry for him being such big child, with all his fake oceansoulness, whinning and all his running from real life routine"

and so she thought that "all he wanted was a gentle heart bla bla" giving credit to the thesis he's a poor lonely lovelorn poet? Thesis you are denying ;)

"it is their nature, they are more compassionate"

surely, sometimes it wouldn't hurt to put in other people shoes more when we make judgements of others life (especially if we don't really know them XD )

Phantom wrote on 05.07.2009 at 22:30
"@Guy sorry man, but you totally got those verses wrong.
Could you please explain the sense of telling Marcelo to seek, seduce, tame, kill whatever her ? LOL
It's not imperative..it means "you kill her, you seduce her, you seek her etc etc , you feast on it all" . Because Tuomas opinion was that her husband manipulated Tarja.
And if he has always hated her why the hell Marcelo told he was in love with her (and jealous of Marcelo) . Who is lying now? Marcelo too? "

I think it is you who got the verses wrong.
The sense is that Tuomas didn't like Tarja that much, they were not even real friends, and probably hated her for becoming so popular and getting all the spotlight in the band, that's why he addressed that negative stuff to her through that her husband dude.And I do not deny that Marcelo could also answered all wrong about this stuff , maybe he didn't understood all the processes behind the soul of Oceansoul and took them for love and jealosy (took his lyrics and his blahs blahs about his beauty and the beast trend and lovelorness too serious like some others).

"oh, casually I heard a couple of the same stories also about Tarja when she was still in NW . But I never thought she was a diva for this ;). Maybe it's just called "wrong day" ? :P
I'm sure that at their place you would enjoy every single minute while writing countless autographs, posing for countless pics, listening to countless people you don't know. ;) "

There is a difference between being diva and being shy, you know. Shy persons do not write open letters to fire somebody and get public attention to their personal problems, do not show off at public events and do not establish drama in the bands. Tuomas only likes to call him shy while in real life he acts so much differently, see examples. It is just his image now. Ok, you bought it. well good for you.

"and so she thought that "all he wanted was a gentle heart bla bla" giving credit to the thesis he's a poor lonely lovelorn poet? Thesis you are denying ;)"

She just was sorry for his pose of being poor lonely lovelorn poet in those lyrics while not being all it in real mature life.

Guy wrote on 05.07.2009 at 23:47
"I think it is you who got the verses wrong.
The sense is that Tuomas didn't like Tarja that much, they were not even real friends, and probably hated her for becoming so popular and getting all the spotlight in the band, that's why he addressed that negative stuff to her through that her husband dude.And I do not deny that Marcelo could also answered all wrong about this stuff , maybe he didn't understood all the processes behind the soul of Oceansoul and took them for love and jealosy (took his lyrics and his blahs blahs about his beauty and the beast trend and lovelorness too serious like some others). "

Everybody interpreted the lyrics like I did, because they are clear and there is nothing to interprete . You are the only one who got it right? LOL And your interpretation makes NO SENSE . So he orders to Marcelo to seduce her and to kill her. ROFL , what the fuck does it mean? You are clearly unaware of all the statements Tuomas did after the split. He mainly accused Marcelo XD. But you are convinced of this, and that he hates Tarja so much to order his husband to kill her LOL , why in BBB he calls her beautiful and writes "they used to love" (which doesn't necessairly mean romantically) then ? XD ahah
For instance, Tarja and him were friends..also according to Tarja before she got convinced they were not (obviously angry for what they did, and everybody would have told the same in her position)
Oh yes..Marcelo interpretated the lyrics wrong (wait, he's a naive fangirl too lol) and he also made up an entire conversation he had with Tuomas in a hotel room ( Marcelo the attention seeker lol) . Lol dude, you don't make sense.

"There is a difference between being diva and being shy, you know. Shy persons do not write open letters to fire somebody and get public attention to their personal problems, do not show off at public events and do not establish drama in the bands. Tuomas only likes to call him shy while in real life he acts so much differently, see examples. It is just his image now. Ok, you bought it. well good for you. "

Bla bla bla , an other proof you didn't understand my point. You clearly live with Tuomas to know how he is in real life (=life outside Nightwish) lol . I didn't buy anything man, I'm perfectly critical about what I'm talking about. On the contrary, you seem to act more like the acritical angry dude.

"She just was sorry for his pose of being poor lonely lovelorn poet in those lyrics while not being all it in real mature life."

lol, totally uncoherent ..someone who is sorry for a guy who (according to you) has never been her friend doesn't even give a shit about that guy . Or at least she doesn't address him sweet lyrics telling him "poor dead boy, he wanted a gentle heart, a toy bla bla bla because he's so lost and his dreams are running wild " lol.
Those might be words to address to a person who is a friend, a person you care about . But according to you they were not even friends , so I bet Tarja had other inspirations rather than Tuomas lol .

Phantom wrote on 06.07.2009 at 00:39
"Everybody interpreted the lyrics like I did, because they are clear and there is nothing to interprete . You are the only one who got it right? LOL And your interpretation makes NO SENSE . "

Oh, so you have megalomania to say that EVERYBODY interpreted the lyrics like you did. Big news, dude, many other people interpreted them in another way. So don't make a pose that you are so damn right.

"So he orders to Marcelo to seduce her and to kill her. ROFL , what the fuck does it mean? You are clearly unaware of all the statements Tuomas did after the split. He mainly accused Marcelo XD. But you are convinced of this, and that he hates Tarja so much to order his husband to kill her LOL , why in BBB he calls her beautiful and writes "they used to love" (which doesn't necessairly mean romantically) then ? XD ahah "

It means that he has lots of negative feelings towards his ex-singer and her husband, dude.
He calls her beautiful more in ironical way, it is not a compliment. Never thought of it? Of course no, he is such an Oceansoul to you )).
"They used to love" - well, another of his lost-romantic-lonely-missing attitudes. He needed to keep up with his Romantic image.

"For instance, Tarja and him were friends..also according to Tarja before she got convinced they were not (obviously angry for what they did, and everybody would have told the same in her position) "

Ok, may be it was at the very beginnig, only at the beginning they had normal relationships- by the 2000-2001 they were already having huge problems with dealing with each other and overall in the band. So for the most of her time in the band they already were not.

"Oh yes..Marcelo interpretated the lyrics wrong (wait, he's a naive fangirl too lol) and he also made up an entire conversation he had with Tuomas in a hotel room ( Marcelo the attention seeker lol) . Lol dude, you don't make sense."

Why not? He didn't know Tuomas for long or close and toumas pretty well did with his pose of eternal longing for someone. Maybe he made it up , thought it would be better instead of saying "tuomas was mad because Tarja was so popular, and he was loosing his spotlight" but he surely made a mistake, cause some obsessed Tarjafans and Tuomasfans are now so keen on this love conspiricy -shame to them. They are so crazy, they sometimes say that Eva is also about Tarja, lol!

BTW, Tuomasfans, some of them, are so eager to proove it cause it makes their precious Tuomas look more hurt and suffering, more crestfallen romantic kinda dude. And btw, you are obviously so keen on this love thing, so eager to protect Tuomas no matter what in this field. Are you sure you are not Tuomas's fanboy?

"You clearly live with Tuomas to know how he is in real life (=life outside Nightwish) lol "

And you also clearly live with him to say for sure that he is really so shy?

"someone who is sorry for a guy who (according to you) has never been her friend doesn't even give a shit about that guy . Or at least she doesn't address him sweet lyrics telling him "poor dead boy, he wanted a gentle heart, a toy bla bla bla because he's so lost and his dreams are running wild " lol."

As I said they might have had just normal relationships (not big friends), but normal at the beginning. And that's why she was sorry everything ended like that -they didn't become real friends, instead he turned into that guy with a lovelorn pose who is running away from responsibility. I also do not see these lyrics as such sweet ones, they are more of feeling compassion kind. Sometimes women feel sorry for total strangers, but here she worked with him, knew him from school, and at the very beginning she had normal relationships with him. So why not feel sorry for him a bit.

BTW, romantic, shy dude and just a good person who really loved that woman wouldn't have fired her via open letter with all that stuff he said there about here (true or false) and wouldn't make a PR and drama out of her name, her firing and everything.
When you love somebody, you respect them and do not want to hurt them. Loving is about sacrifice, man, even self-sacrifice. Real man gotta remeber it and do it, it is the thing what makes them real man and proves they loved that girl or woman.

Guy wrote on 06.07.2009 at 02:00
@Guy , there is no sense in keeping a discussion with you . You are so stuck up with your uncoherent theory just because you like to picture Tuomas as an emotionless freak without not even noticing that what I'm actually saying about him doesn't make him noble, or oceansoul and all the shit you are talking about but makes him equally negative as you are trying so hard to picture him.

"Oh, so you have megalomania to say that EVERYBODY interpreted the lyrics like you did"
No but a vast majority of people because, guess what, there is not so much left to interpretation.

"It means that he has lots of negative feelings towards his ex-singer and her husband, dude.

"well, another of his lost-romantic-lonely-missing attitudes. He needed to keep up with his Romantic image. "
while, according to you, he suddenly gets real and stabs her in the other song ..lol that's called perfect logic man!

"Why not? He didn't know Tuomas for long or close and toumas pretty well did with his pose of eternal longing for someone"
Did you actually read what he wrote? He reported facts saying that he spoke to Tuomas and he said those things he said. He didn't say "yes I thought Tuomas was in love with her because bla bla" . If a random dude call me and ask me "are you in love with person x, stop trying with her" and I'm not , I'm going to tell him "Fuck you I'm not" not what Tuomas told. Maybe Marcelo wanted to picture Tuomas as the lovelorn oceansoul poet too lol , for some mysterious reason you have in mind XD

"And btw, you are obviously so keen on this love thing, so eager to protect Tuomas no matter what in this field."
I'm so keen because actually it makes sense and I'm pretty sure there is truth, and there are things called evidences (mainly Marcelo declarations and the fact Tuomas didn't deny it fully.). You know , he could have posed of being lovelorn for someone else instead of passing for the coward who fired Tarja also for jealousy. Because thanks to Marcelo that's the image he gives of Tuomas, a coward who fired her in this way also for jealousy . If this is a romantic, positive, lovelorn bullshit for you then I don't know what to think. For me is being pathethic, childish and coward.

"And you also clearly live with him to say for sure that he is really so shy? "
I said I think, because a person who is born shy cannot easily change from A to B . He can gets better because you achieve success in your life, but most of the time you partially remain the character you were . And it doesn't seem that Tuomas has been such an extroverted guy at the beginning. Anyway, does it makes better or worst being shy? Shyness does not mean better person. Quite the contrary. But you are so convinced that if I'm saying he's shy it means I'm justyfying him lol.

"I also do not see these lyrics as such sweet ones, they are more of feeling compassion kind"
they are surely cheesy as much as the lovelorn poses you are complaining of.
"So why not feel sorry for him a bit. "
Because you don't address songs to people you didn't give a damn about (it's not a question of being woman or man) , especially songs with such words and feel sorry for the idiot who kicked you out. After being treated like that the last thing you do is feeling sorry for his inner bullshit turmoil (since you said it's bullshit most of the time) especially if you have never cared (as friend) for this person.

"BTW, romantic, shy dude and just a good person who really loved that woman wouldn't have fired her via open letter...Real man gotta remeber it and do it, it is the thing what makes them real man and proves they loved that girl or woman. "

You got your answer dude. Not everybody is brave, real man, good person as you in this world . There is something called anger, frustration, jelousy , cowdardy even towards the person you "love" (in your own way) ..why do you think people often hurt so much other people they love? Never heard in the news of so called "jelousy crimes" ?. And there is also something called "interests for the band" , doing your own interests instead of taking in consideration the others interests. And the two things can go perfectly together if you think about it. People are not always good and real men, sometimes put their own job before everything, and people sometimes might act as total jerks because of frustration.

Phantom wrote on 06.07.2009 at 10:25
"they sometimes say that Eva is also about Tarja, lol! "

well, that's called exhagerating .
between, you are mocking people who say he wrote songs about her but at the same time you are convinced she dedicated at least 2 songs about him, a guy who she didn't care about and wasn't friend with and who kicked her out in that way lol

Phantom wrote on 06.07.2009 at 10:28
Phantom said: "I think Tarja's dead boy has nothing to do with Tuomas honestly , I just found funny the fact she used the same image."

Phantom I think all 4 Tarja's characters are NW related. The Dead Boy is Tuomas, The Ice Queen is what he claimed Tarja to be in that open letter, The Doll is what Tarja claims she was in Nightwish and The Phoenix is Tarja on solo. OF COURSE that she felt the need to reply to him. In a classy manner, through her art and not through media. ;-)

And about Tarja's lyrics: I don't know who wrote them so I do not interpret them. For me they could be about ANYTHING. Though I must admit that certain sentences remind to Nightwish but the rest does NOT. ;-)

@Phantom: wow, you're pissed off! :-D I didn't know you can be like that too. :-p

Btw I'm doubting that "closet homosexuality" theory again. Now it seems to me he was truly in love with Tarja. I'm confused. XD

TheSeer wrote on 06.07.2009 at 17:41
@The Seer , you shouldn't change idea so often . :P
I'll stick to mine

Phantom wrote on 07.07.2009 at 09:39

TARJA TURUNEN: False information about Polish show

Comments

Latest Tarja Turunen news

Most popular from Tarja Turunen

Tarja Turunen

Links

What do you want to do now?

Browse bands